"Take a Shower!" - Why Your Job Sucks & The Rule of 3 in Business
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Most people don’t know why work feels so hard.
They show up late. Expect their boss to remind them. Think effort alone is enough.
But the truth is different. And it’s brutal.
Some people get ahead. Others get left behind. Why?
It all comes down to one simple rule.
The Rule of 3 in Business.
Most ignore it. But the ones who get it? They win.
What is it? And why does it change everything?
0:00 - Intro
1:16 - How To Make Work Not Suck
5:00 - Bring More Value Than Your Salary
9:42 - The Little Things Matter
13:55 - The Problem With Younger Generation
23:48 - Ask Yourself This Question
28:58 - It's Ok To Fail
37:57 - You Won't Get A Raise Just Because...
41:49 - Attach Yourself To A Metric That Matters
54:49 - "The Pirate Ship"
1:01:26 - Important (do this)
1:04:30 - How To Make Work Not Suck
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Transcript
It's not my job to call you and make sure you woke up this morning. It's not my job to make sure you took a shower before you showed up to work. It's not my job to make sure you got both of your shoes on. Right? Like, it's crazy, but there are people that run businesses.
I coach them and they're like, you would not believe how stupid some of these people are that think they're gonna keep a job and can't show up with, you know, the right shirt on.
[:If you expect your boss to call you because you overslept reality check, you're getting fired.
[:What advice would you give to somebody starting their career to make work not suck?
[:Lower your expectations. Oh. Why?
[:That that's harsh, man. You're gonna come out like that? If you are a small business owner, you can't pay your employees more than they make you. The math doesn't work. I see a lot of people who are like, oh, yeah.
I wanna make $25 an hour. It's like, great. Do you bring more than $25 an hour worth of value to your employer? Because if you don't, then they can't pay you that and stay in business for very long.
[:Making work not suck takes two components. So That's really good. Make work not suck. You know what? I'm gonna I'm gonna throw the I'm gonna throw the rule of three out there.
Welcome to the make work not suck podcast.
[:Alright, Ryan. So you have if I remember correctly, you've got two boys. How old are your boys again?
[:They are 17 and 14.
[:17 and 14. Alright. I've got two boys. They're 12 and seven. So about about the same age as part.
Do your boys listen to you, or are they too cool now? Oh.
[:Oh, that's a oh, man. You're coming out swinging. Do my kids listen to me? Do my boys listen to me? So I would say I've crossed the threshold
[:Okay.
[:Where there is still a level of dad Mhmm. But we're more we're we're I don't wanna say we're buddies because we're not buddies. Like, it's definitely, like, dad first, buddy second.
[:Mhmm. But
[:especially the 17 year old because he's about to graduate high school and, you know, has the job and college stuff picked out and stuff like that. Don't get me wrong. I still have to tell him to take out the trash. Right. But they they have reached a point where they do value the input and do ask for guidance.
Not always the case, though.
[:I think I'm a little bit behind you. My boys are a little younger, so I think I'm more dad and but starting to try to get into that that more kind of adviser more adviser less boss kind of a role. And so here's the thought I had for for us today. You're fortunate that your boys are listening to you, at least a little bit. I don't know if mine mine are gonna listen to me when they grow up, but I think it would be fun for us to record a conversation around career advice.
How do we make work not suck for our kids? Right? They're not quite entering the workforce yet, but they're coming in the next couple of years. Maybe one day, if we cross our fingers and we're lucky, they'll actually listen to this podcast and hear the advice that their dad has to say for them. But for the people who are starting their career early in their career or maybe just looking for a little advice, what advice would you give to somebody starting their career to make work not suck?
[:Lower your expectations. Oh.
[:Why? That that's harsh, man. You're gonna come out like that?
[:So okay. So one, Matthew does have a job.
[:Okay.
[:So he has entered the workforce. He's been there for, roughly six months.
[:Okay. Now
[:I'll settle a stage here. Well, there there's, like, there's a little bit of a funny story behind this. But, when one, he had no motivation to get a job until the girl, and then it was making money. So then he became the job.
[:Mhmm.
[:Secondarily to it, what actually got him the job, and this is the going back to your question of do your kids listen to you. What actually motivated him to get a job is when his mother took his computer away and said, you can't play video games until you get a job.
[:Nice.
[:He had one within a week. Right.
[:That's motivation. The powerful thing.
[:Secondary component. This is going back to probably, like, tenth grade, you know, when he was not quite old enough to work, but it was within the room. He, like, mapped out his expenses and this, that, and the other. He's like, I gotta make $25 an hour. And we all started laughing because the the thought of a 16, 17 year old making $25 an hour is, not saying impossible, but highly unprovable and especially for us that grew up, you know, with minimum wage being $5.15 an hour.
I think it's, like, 7 something an hour now.
[:Mhmm.
[:He started out I think he got lucky and he's up to around 10 or $11 an hour.
[:Sure.
[:First learning lesson of lower your expectations was you're not gonna go be a, you're not gonna go get a $25 an hour job as an inexperienced, high schooler. So first expectations was set your expectations appropriate on the salary because it's just gonna be lower.
[:It's interesting because there's a lot of talk right now about this idea of livable wage.
[:Mhmm.
[:And I think it's an important conversation. Right? I think we need to pay people, appropriately. However, there's another side of that conversation, which is what I would call livable skills. If you are a small business owner, you can't pay your employees more than they make you.
Like, the math doesn't work. I see a lot of people who are like, oh, yeah. I wanna make $25 an hour. It's like, great. Do you bring more than $25 an hour worth of value to your employer.
Because if you don't, then then they can't pay you that and stay in business for very long.
[:Oh, a a %. And so, I mean, at this point, you know, he came to the realization. He started the job. Again, that was probably a year and a half before he started working that he had this idea of what it was gonna be. Mhmm.
And and he's learned how to budget, and he's, you know, learning to unsaved. And I've got my senior trip and this, that, and the other. So he's he's making it work. But now that he's in the workforce, it's now he's learning the dichotomy of work of, what happens when the boss is not clear, what happens when you have and now I I guess I should ask you the question. I'm talking literal first job.
Maybe we need to talk, like or maybe we need to we need to transition into, like, first real job or, adult job.
[:I think they're all applicable.
[:Right. I I I agree. So in this case, we're using the the, you know, the the teenager getting their first job. And it well, let me let me start with this. I think there is an opportunity for the younger generation to get a job, a probably very narrow, availability outside of the traditional retail, fast food, quick serve, etcetera.
You know, those are the those are the ones that are, you know, fairly quickly and easy to train, fairly intuitive, low low wage, but, you know, high schooler can get into the job fairly well. The training is, you know, days
[:and you're Right.
[:Versus something that's gonna pay, say, $25 an hour, you need to be more skilled.
[:Right.
[:But I do think some opportunities like that exist. So if you are a a teenager, I'm I'm not gonna say it's impossible to get that $25 an hour job, but you probably gotta bring something to the table. And to the point you just said, you have to bring more than $25 an hour of value to whatever that job is. But I'm gonna assume there's probably some filing or some computer, like, data input scanning, maybe some AI prompting or something like that you could do for a law firm or CPA firm or something like that, where they probably would be willing to pay $25 an hour using a a computer skill that the average, teenager might have today. But Yeah.
Again, you're not gonna get that wage at a quick serve restaurant, which there's more of those jobs available. Or go ahead.
[:Those jobs are also probably on the decline. I think more and more of those jobs are gonna be outsourced robotics, you know, move to the phone for mobile ordering. So a lot of the quick serve, opportunities, retail opportunities, and I just think over the next ten years, those opportunities are gonna get fewer, not greater. Right.
[:So I think the secondary one is is think about this. If the first time you were learning to do something, you probably made mistakes. You probably didn't know what you wanted to do. Mhmm. There may have been some lazy people in the mix, like, if you joined a, a soccer team and you probably had some players that didn't practice or didn't really know what to do.
Let's be honest. That's the same thing with your first job. And as my son is learning, is some of these people don't really want to work as hard as they probably should. And I think there's a case where there's, you know, in his case, he probably works harder than he essentially than he should. But he's learning the difference of he puts more hard work in.
Well, he's gotten a raise and he's moved to different positions, but he also still notices the people that are not putting the effort in. And so it's like, well, this is this is what you have to learn is that's why it's called call climbing the corporate ladder.
[:Mhmm.
[:You are doing the extra work, getting recognized for it, and getting opportunity, and that person that's not doing it is not getting those opportunities. So don't complain about that person doing less work because you're getting so his his problem was he was climbing the ladder, and he was complaining about the other people not putting in the effort. Right. But you have to recognize the the pay gap now.
[:Sure.
[:And so that's where the expectation of everybody is the same or equal or etcetera. That's why I say lower your expectations.
[:I would say paired with that. Right? Maybe lower your expectations. I would also say the little things matter. Showing up on time, having a good attitude, people enjoying working with you, being nice to customers.
Like, that kind of stuff used to be table stakes. It's not anymore, and that kind of stuff matters. The the difference between somebody who's good at their job but unpleasant and good at their job and nice to work with is a big difference. And so you can't always control who you work with or what you're gonna get assigned today. Especially early on in your career, there's gonna be a lot of crap assignments that's just kinda part of the deal.
But if you can do those things well, do them with a good attitude, show up on time, be, dependable, and and those kinds of things. Like, I'm hearing from so many employers now that it's just hard to find people that'll just do the basics like that, and and that can differentiate you even within the first couple of hours. So I would say if you wanna make work not suck, start with the things that you can control. Be on time. Don't smell.
You know, have a clean uniform. Have a good attitude. Be willing to work hard. Do what you say you're gonna do, and that already puts you in the top 20% of employees right there.
[:Yep. I I think the other one too, and I don't mean this in a negative way when I say lower your expectations, I also think there's a level of, how to phrase this? When the the teenagers are in school, everything is very structured.
[:Mhmm.
[:When you switch classes, what your assignments are, you know, and there may be some teachers that are a little more loose and some that are a little more strict, but I think everything is very structured and I think there's a lot of expectation of processes to be clearly defined because we have we have risen the SOPs in the education system, if you will.
[:Right.
[:And then when they get into these small businesses, it's a lot more like figure it out. And so I think there's a level of expectation. Just everything is gonna be lined out for you. Everything is gonna be told or there's an SOP for everything that tells you how to do it all. And sometimes it's like, here's the mop, here's the broom, there's the floor.
Good luck.
[:Right.
[:I've heard many teenagers complaining about, well, they didn't tell me how to do that.
[:Right. I would say this is funny. I was sharing this analogy with, with a client earlier today. The difference between a pirate ship and the navy.
[:Oh, those are that's a good one. That's a good one.
[:That that's a good one. Right? Most small businesses are like a pirate ship. Right? There there are no uniforms.
There are no rules. You don't get trained. You don't there isn't HR. You don't have a a performance review. It's like, just survive.
Right? And and if you're in a small business, you're in a business that's doing, I would say, less than $10,000,000 a year in revenue, it is a pirate ship. They are just trying to survive to the next payroll. Right? Swing to the totally opposite side of the continuum, these large Fortune 500 multibillion dollar organizations, they run more like the Unsaved.
Everyone's got a uniform. Everyone's got a badge. There's a standard operating procedure for how you do everything that you could ever be asked to do, and you have to stay within the lines or you're gonna get yourself in trouble. There is value in both places to start your career. And and I've worked in both of those kinds of organizations, but you've gotta be very clear with yourself on the set of rules and expectations that come with that.
If you are on a pirate ship, don't expect there to be a lot of training. If you are working for a Fortune 500 company, don't expect a lot of latitude. They're gonna tell you exactly what to do. They're gonna tell you exactly how to do it, and your answer is, thank you, sir. May I have another?
Both are okay. I've known people who've been wildly successful starting at either end of the continuum or somewhere in the middle, but just understand that they're a very different place to start, and there's pros and cons with either approach.
[:Oh, a %. I think one thing that the especially younger generation, you know, the the teens coming up right now, I think there's a there's a I don't even know how to describe it. Like, they like to complain.
[:I I
[:think this is a side effect of the Internet. Like, everybody has an opinion.
[:Right.
[:Everybody gets a voice. And and I'm not just I'm not saying that's bad. I just think because, I was reading a book the other day and it talks about, like, how everything on the Internet is asking for an input. And so it's just asking it's asking people to always just put stuff out there that generates noise. So I think there's especially, you know, I don't know about the the young ladies, but the the young men, I see it in a lot of the teenage boys around my, my son.
They love to complain or pick apart or criticize every little thing, you know, someone playing a video game to someone driving a car to, you know, watching a movie, you know, ripping apart a movie instead of enjoying it. I think that could actually make work suck.
[:Mhmm.
[:Bring that behavior into it. I think it can do two things. One, it's going to make you hate your job. Two, you're creating toxicity in your own environment. And three, it can bring others down.
Of course, there's also the, you know, misery loves company.
[:Right.
[:At the end of the day, if you if you bring that in and you spread that within the organization, there's a high probability you'll be fired or you make yourself miserable. So I think this is where we're bringing expect you're setting expectations for yourself, like, no job is gonna be perfect. And what makes work not suck
[:And if it was perfect, they wouldn't want you there because you'd ruin it.
[:Oh, yeah. No. That too. Yeah. But what makes work not suck is control like you just said, controlling your own environment.
[:Mhmm.
[:Being in control of your own destiny. People are always gonna complain. It doesn't matter where you are in the organization. It doesn't matter what position you're in, what company it is. People are always gonna complain.
And what can make work not suck is not getting sucked into it. Show up, do the work, do the work you're paid to do. If if they're asking you to do things that you don't feel right or unethical or something like that, you should leave. But if you're asked to do things within the bounds of the job that you're being paid to do, do the work, collect the paycheck, and go home at the end of the day.
[:Mhmm.
[:And if you don't like the pay that's there, find another opportunity. You know, I think there's another piece of advice that throughout there is don't well, especially a young teenager. Don't quit the job until you found the next one, unless there's, like, an ethics problem or something like that.
[:Right.
[:There's Yeah. There's been too many, young teenagers, literally in the past few months that have quit their jobs that I know because they thought they were just gonna instantly get another one, and now they're hunting and they don't have a job.
[:Yeah. And it's harder than you think.
[:They think the grass is greener on the other side, and then all they found was more of the same thing they already had.
[:I would pair this, you know, positive attitude. I would pair that with this idea of being humble. I think it's important, especially early in your career or even early in an organization. Maybe you're a little bit further into your career, but you've you've just started with a new company. There's a lot of things that might be stupid, or you just might not understand why.
And if you go in with the attitude of, well, that's dumb. I'm not gonna do that. That's stupid. Why are we doing it that way? You get a bad reputation.
You get all the benefits of their the negative benefits of the toxicity. You make yourself miserable, and you kinda get a a reputation of being a negative person. Whereas, if you just come in with a little bit of a a posture of humility and say, hey. Can you explain to me why we do it that way? Or can you help me understand this?
Happy to do it. Right? Start with the positive. Happy to do that. Can you help me understand the context for this or why we do it this way?
It makes you seem like you are hungry to learn, that you're curious, that that you want to understand, and that separates you, sets you apart. And every once in a while, you're gonna run into somebody who's like, you know what? I don't know why we do it this way. This is stupid. We shouldn't do this anymore.
And you'll help them find something. But if you lead with that's stupid, we shouldn't do that, you're not likely to be successful in that organization. And a little bit of humility and a little bit curiosity will take you a very long way.
[:Absolutely. I think there's a level of, I'm currently listening to the book, Ego is the Enemy.
[:Oh, yeah. That's so good.
[:Have you done okay. So you've you've read or listened to that one?
[:Mhmm.
[:And what I love is the phrase is everything you desire is on the other side of your ego.
[:Mhmm.
[:And so I think there's a lot of this where ego gets in the way, and I think that's what you're saying is, like, keep your ego in check, you know Yeah. A healthy level of of going into these jobs. Because I think if you bring these false expectations into it, it's going to make work suck. And at at the end of the day, a job is about providing a service for a fee. If you are the role you're in, it can you can make it suck by expecting something other than what it is by either not wanting to do the role and expecting the pay or, expecting more from the role or doing you're doing more above the role and expecting a higher pay, but not getting it because you're doing more than what the role expects.
[:Mhmm. And I
[:think that's where that that ego component comes in, which comes into what you're talking about, that humility. Just have that level of humility
[:There's
[:going into it.
[:There's a whole conversation here around expectations of your job that I I think is is worth calling at least a couple of things. One, your boss is not your parents. Like, the do not expect them to parent you. They're your boss. So if you didn't have parents or didn't have good parents or your parents didn't do their job and you don't know how to do thing like resolve conflict, have hard conversations with people, but still be respectful and professional.
The the ability to receive constructive feedback when somebody say, hey. You're not doing that right, and and be able to take that and not lash out at somebody. Like, those kinds of basics is not your boss's job to help you develop those skills. You need to have those. And if you don't, your career is gonna get real bumpy real fast.
[:Well, I'll I'll flip on the other side of that is don't don't expect the boss to be the opposite of that in in the sense of of, like, you don't have to put up with a crappy boss.
[:Also true.
[:So you you do want a boss that's gonna provide a mentor. I mean, I think that's one especially in a in a in an earlier phase, if there's a general manager of a restaurant that does add a little bit of of coaching and and mentorship opportunity on top of that, I think you want that.
[:Awesome.
[:And and I think the younger generation's really good about seeking that out. So I I think that was less around in our times. I think it's more around in, in our in the current generations, and they seek it out more.
[:They do.
[:And and so I think you should you should expect a a a slight level of mentorship. Don't expect them to be your your coach and your mentor and to stop everything to solve all your problems to
[:like your point. Mhmm.
[:But I think it the opposite is true is is you you should find a you don't want a boss that just expects you to know everything and thinks you're an idiot for not knowing something when it's your first job.
[:Okay. I think there's a difference between expecting you to know anything everything and expecting you to know the basics. It's not my job to call you and make sure you woke up this morning. It's not my job to make sure you took a shower before you showed up to work. It's not my job to make sure you got both of your shoes on.
Right? Like, it's crazy, but there are people that run businesses and I coach them and they're like, you would not believe how stupid some of these people are that think they're gonna keep a job and can't show up with, you know, the right shirt on. That's what I meant by parenting.
[:Like Okay. That that makes more sense. Okay. Okay. That I agree with.
Yes. If you're if you expect your boss to call you because you overslept, reality check. You're getting fired.
[:Right. You're getting fired. Maybe your next boss.
[:Work is gonna suck because you can't wake up to an alarm.
[:Right. Right. The the other thing that I think is interesting though, and this is probably speaks more to the younger generation that I think is more interested in feedback. They are more open to coaching and and hungry for that development. I think it's important to temper that with the understanding that it's not your boss's job to get you promoted.
Like, it is your job to grow your career, to figure out what you want, and to figure out a plan to get there. Now there's lots of people who want to help you, but I can't tell you what you wanna be when you grow up, nor can I or nor will I open the doors for you to get there if you haven't demonstrated, a vision for where you wanna go and a hunger to do the work required to get there?
[:So that that's a big distinction there. Okay. So you're you're right. It's not your boss's job to build your career path. It's your
[:own. Mhmm.
[:But it also is your boss's job to help you achieve that career path.
[:Yes.
[:And and and maybe coach you on it or give you guidance, etcetera. But to your point, it's not your boss's job to lay out the nine point journey for you because you're entitled to it. Right. Or you think they should do it. You have to do your you have to be the one that's in charge of your career, and your boss should help you get there, not do it for you.
[:I would say a good boss will help you get there.
[:Yes.
[:Many won't. Good ones will. And but but you have to you've gotta know what you want, and you've gotta know and you've gotta be willing to do what it takes to get there.
[:Yes.
[:Right? People that are like, oh, I wanna make more money. No shit. Everybody wants to make more money. That that doesn't help me.
Right? What do you want to do? What's the value that you want to add that would enable me to give you more money? And if you can't answer that, then I can't help you. So figure out what's the work that you really want to do, and then we'll find ways to help you get there.
And once you get there, you will get paid more. But don't chase the dollar because nobody wants to pay you more unless you're adding significantly more value than the paycheck they're giving you.
[:Yep. You know, another thing is, as I think for older millennials and older, there was a level of just kinda figure it out and you just kinda got dumped into the workplace and you just discovered and to some degree, you knew what your path was before you got out of high school and you just Right. You figured it out. I think there's so many options and so many dynamics for the the younger generation, but here's where I think a gap is. I think the younger millennials and, the Gen z, I think they were given they were forced, like, you have to make a decision in high school and go to college, and you have to know what you want you have to know what you wanna do, and you have to make a selection or what the hell you do it.
And that's what's led to all this anxiety and fatigue, and I don't know what to do and, etcetera. I think society put a lot of pressure on them to achieve this perfect path or result without a clear lack of journey. Now what my younger son is going through right now is I think this is one of those that, you know, you know, five to ten years of of what didn't work well Coming back is they have this career research class they force every kid to go through, and they're literally like, how much money do you wanna make? Well, I I wanna make a hundred thousand dollars. Or what what kind of car do you wanna drive?
What kind of house do you wanna live in? Do you wanna travel? Like, they ask all these questions. It's like, okay, you need to make this much money. And then they go over here and they're like, what do you like doing?
Okay. Here's a career path. And then it's like, okay, you wanna be a welder, but you need $200,000 a year. And they're like
[:Actually, welders right now might make
[:Well, yeah.
[:Closer to 200 than some college graduates. But, yeah. I get your point.
[:But but but it shows the, you know, the the gap. And then they have to start picking and choosing, like, what lifestyle do I wanna have versus what career do I want. And so I do think there's a level of, I think Gen Alpha or the the younger Gen Zs that are, like the fourth my 14 year old son who's right on the edge of Gen Z and the alphas that are right behind him, I think they're gonna be a little bit more balanced than the younger millennials and the and the Gen z's right now. So I really think the younger Gen z's, or the the the, yeah, younger millennials and and older gen z's, I think, are the ones struggling with it the most. Like, my Yeah.
My 17 year old son didn't have any of these options. So I'm just between a three year age difference between my two sons. One has it, one does not. Older son getting ready for college was panicked and trying to figure out what to do and where he wants to go and this, that, and the other.
[:Mhmm.
[:Younger son is already asking those questions in eighth grade.
[:I would say always have a plan, but be open to changing your plan. I can't help somebody who doesn't have a plan. Right? And so I think it's vitally important that you've always got a plan for what you wanna do with your career. You can change that as often as you want.
[:Is it a plan, or is it at at least a direction?
[:I would say directions may be good enough. It's like like, I knew for a long time that I wanted to be a CEO. And so I would tell people, I was like, look. I've you know, I'm not gonna get there tomorrow, but I think at at the end, you know, at some point in my career, I'd like to run a business. And I've had some great bosses that were like, hey.
You wanna run a business someday. This would be a great opportunity for you to take a step in that direction. But they couldn't open the door for me if they didn't know where I wanted to go. And so having some kind of direction, that's maybe a better word. Having a direction, say, this is the direction I wanna go.
And then it is totally fine for you to get three steps down the path and be like, never mind. This sucks. I don't like that. I wanna go this way. And even in an interview, you could say, look.
I I took that job because I wanted to do x, and I got into x, and I realized I hated it. And but I really liked y, and so now I'm here because I wanna move in this direction. That is a very good answer in the interview. It doesn't mean you can't change your mind, but if you don't have a plan, nobody can help you.
[:Well, I think there's so much pressure to have the answer. Right. It's like everybody's gotta it's like having not having the answer is like you're a failure or you're stupid or ignorant or something like that. So and I think even again, I'll go back to my older son. There was this pressure for them to to figure out what they're gonna do.
It's like, well, we need an answer. We need an answer. We need an answer.
[:We need an answer.
[:You gotta figure out. We need an answer. And, like, the universities now are going, look, don't worry about it. Just do you like do you like the campus? Do you like the people?
[:Do you
[:like the culture? Do you like what we stand for? Because we'll figure out your career path. Just just come to the school your first year's basics anyways, and we'll help you navigate it. So even the colleges are are seeing this shift.
But I think I think what's interesting is I'm gonna take my, Vistage chair. He was a he's an engineer turned CEO of a of a of a very large manufacturing, technology company.
[:Mhmm.
[:And after he retired from that, he was, like, I now have to figure out what I wanna do. And so it's, like, literally, like, I've I don't wanna go be the CEO for another thirty years again. Mhmm. I've done that. And and it was he went through the progress of, like, I'm gonna just try everything and figure out what I don't like
[:to see what I
[:do like. And I think that's okay. I I mean, that's that's taking somebody on the other end of their career that doesn't know what they wanna do when they grow up. Or their second career. In their second career.
Taking that back to now. It's okay to just try things if it doesn't work. I think there's there's also this level of like failure, like you can't fail and you're not allowed to fail. And I think I don't know where that's come into our culture, but it's like failure is is you can't have success without failure. Right.
But it's like you're expected to have success without failure. And I think that if you don't have the answer or if you pick a path and it's failed, then you're a failure in life and you're a disappointment. And I don't know where this has come into our society, but I think it's okay. Like you said, pick something. Try it.
If you don't like it, pick something else, and just keep going at it until you find something you like. And you know what? I think if you're gonna go with that take that advice from a from a younger try working retail. If you don't like retail, go to quick serve. If you don't like quick serve, try a sit down restaurant.
Be a server.
[:Okay. Question. You've got your boys. How long would you want them to stay with it? Like, if they get into it and they hate it, how long would you want them to stick with it before they jump to something else?
[:I would say give it at least ninety days. But what I Oh. What I've said what I've said is if you don't like it, then find, like, find the next job, get the next job lined up, resign from one, and go to the other. Don't decide you don't like it, quit, and give up and have nothing. So if you I said, I I would suggest you stick with it for ninety days, I guess, unless there's an ethical or a a a moral or something like that.
Right? Like, we're taking all that off the table. But if you don't like it, find the next job.
[:I like that because you're probably not gonna find that immediately. So if you're ninety days in and you realize you hate it, you're probably ninety days from your next job anyways. So it it it might be a couple of months by the time you're actually making the transition.
[:Give you a real example. There is a grocery chain that is hiring, I think, that's, about 3 or $4 more an hour than what he makes.
[:Mhmm.
[:But he found out the, amount of effort that they have to put into because he'd be one of those, like, online shoppers that has to run up and down the store and do all the picking and this, that, and the other.
[:That's a lot of work.
[:It's like, I don't wanna do that. I'm like, okay. Mhmm. So you don't like this, but you don't want that. So you actually are okay with the job that you have.
He's like, yeah. It's actually more
[:more paced
[:for what you want.
[:That's smart.
[:Otherwise, grass is always greener on the other side. Right?
[:Yeah. I've I work with a couple of Chick fil A operators, and they paid they pay well, depending on the market. I mean, many of them will pay top of market for high school, college age, workers. They're paying $17.18 bucks an hour. But those kids are not sitting on their phone all day.
Those kids are busted. They are working hard shifts. And you can make more money if you are willing to work harder. But if you're not willing to work harder, have a good attitude, show up on time, do all those things, take more responsibility, you're not gonna make more money.
[:Well, let's let's be honest. With Chick fil A, they pay that top dollar, but those high school kids are standing on the curb in the rain and sun and shine. Now they've got they're protected, and they have heaters for this the winter and fans for the summer, but they're standing outside, taking orders with a smile. No exception.
[:Right. I've got clients in the in the Northeast. They're standing in two feet of snow and with a smile on their face handling change and I mean, yeah. You like, you're going to work for it. But but that's another great example of they put those kids out there because they're able to run more cars through the drive through.
So they are making more money so they can afford to pay a higher wage. And that's how this works. Like, the money just doesn't show up from nowhere. So if you're willing to help your employer make more money, they will likely pay you more. But you've gotta make sure that you're adding enough value that they can afford to pay you $18.20, 25, whatever that is an hour, and still make money afterwards.
[:Alright. Let's fast forward a little bit.
[:Okay.
[:So we've been talking kinda high school, first job, you know, retail restaurant, etcetera.
[:Okay.
[:Let's let's fast forward to college and get into first adult job paying, you know Professional job? Professional job where you've gotta pay your own bills. You're basically supporting yourself. Because the the earlier one we're talking about, you're still probably living with mom and dad or mom or dad.
[:You're on somebody else's payroll.
[:You're yeah. You're you're you're a lot of your bills are paid for. So let's fast forward to first job. How can you make work not suck? This is first job.
You're paying your way, living expenses, everything. Lower your expectations.
[:Lower your expectations. Your money does not go as far as you think it will. So no matter how much money you're making, it's not as much as you think it is. Taxes, inflation, like, just be very don't go out and buy that new car the first week you start your new job. Wait until you get a couple of paychecks, to see what you actually take home every two weeks before you start making major purchases, and and major lifestyle decisions.
undergrad degree right after:But I would say that a lot of what I learned waiting tables made me successful in my first professional job. The ability to show up on time, work hard, be humble, be polite, be teachable, be curious, be professional, Those things aren't hard. Like, anybody can do those things. Right? You don't have to go to school for those things.
But it's surprising how many people just don't check the boxes on the basics. And and you're if you don't, you're choosing to play work on hard mode.
[:Yeah. I think everybody has that problem a little bit where you get the new job and so you get the upgraded house and buy the car and then, like, the job doesn't work out ninety days, you get fired or, you hate the job and you wanna look for something else, but you can't find a job that pays as much as that. I mean, I think that's just general advice across the board is whenever you get into a a a position or a job, like, don't rush. Like, make sure it's gonna work before you debt load yourself, into into a problem.
[:I mean,
[:I think it's just general good advice.
[:Yeah. That's that's good financial advice. Not about making work not suck. That's about how to make life not suck.
[:Yeah. I think one thing I would say for a younger generation going into their first job is is don't I mean, you should you should map out your career path. You should map out your your escalation and what you're trying to do and your, you know, glide path. I would say don't expect the company to operate on your timeline. Just because you wanna raise in six months doesn't mean the company wants to give you one in six months.
Now I think it I think it's I think you should find out those times and opportunities, and you should constantly work on your path, and you should check-in with your boss and make sure those things are there. But I've seen too many people that go, well, I've been here for six months, and I've done these accomplishments, therefore, I should get a raise.
[:Mhmm.
[:Well, no. I mean, good on you. Yeah. And and out if if I'm inside the business, I'm your boss, I'm like, yeah. You're showing great career path and progression, but it goes back down to is there a seat available for you?
Is it the the time of year for raises? Like, there's cycles for this stuff. There's there has to be a a role available to promote you into. Mhmm. Just because you did a bunch of achievement doesn't mean and and I think I'm gonna use the video game analogy.
The kids are especially some of the boys, they're so used to playing video games and leveling up. And every time they level up, they get a reward, and they get more, and they get more, and they just keep climbing that ladder. But that's not how career paths work. I mean, it it is, but it's on a mutual time frame or the business time frame, not your own. And I would say just because you've been there for a year doesn't, you know fortune 500, yes.
Go back to the navy versus the the pirate ship. Right? Sure. The navy is gonna have automatic triggers. You know, as you hit certain ranks and you check certain boxes, you're gonna rank up and you're gonna go from a, you know, e whatever to an e whatever, and that's got, you know, pay pounds to it.
[:But that's not gonna happen quickly. No. And that's okay. But just understand that in large corporations, you don't get promoted every 12 months. Like, that's just not how large corporations work.
Small companies can do that, but there's not a safety net there. Right? There's not a path, and that's higher risk, higher reward. Well, I
[:think that goes back to the pirate ship.
[:Mhmm.
[:The small business may throw too much money at somebody. The pirate ship may elevate someone to first mate that shouldn't be that's too junior. I mean, it's it's the chaos dynamic. Right?
[:Right. They might give you your own ship and then you sink it.
[:Right. So I I think it's it's not about lowering your expectations or dismissing your expectations. It's about making sure you've got, like, that plan or that direction and that you're constantly communicating and checking in and making sure it's on point. And at the end of the day, if you put all the time and energy into it and you've got the skill sets and the business is gonna hold you back Mhmm. Find the other job.
Like, that's Yeah. That's the whole job hopping component people go through. And I think we're seeing that a lot right now as people gain skills and they make a lateral hop either in the same company or into another company, to keep, you know, progressing. And we're seeing that job hopping more frequently, which I think is I think is okay, if you're trying to progress your career. I think where it happens erroneously is is when you don't have that plan mapped out or, again, on, when your expectations don't align with the reality of your current job.
[:I I would also say that it can sometimes be a function of people who, want to get you know, want to advance without accomplishing anything. That's just
[:a hallucination.
[:That's just Yeah.
[:That's just luck.
[:I would say to my boys, you know, when you start your career, especially, you know, any sort of professional career, I would say move as quickly as possible into a role where you own something that matters. Right? Something that can be measured. Right? Whether it's sales, whether it's, a p and l, whether it's some sort of a client go live, or, like, something that there is a clear metric of success, and you can say, because I was in this seat, this number moved from this to this.
Right? Those are surprisingly hard to find early in your career. But at the end of the day, you know, ten years later, no one's gonna care how long you were in that seat, whether it was six months, twelve months, or twenty four months. You're gonna say, look. When I showed up, the gross margin on this product was x.
When I left, it was y. And people will be like, dang. That is far more important than how long you sat in the seat.
[:You know what? That's a that's a really good call out. It's it's attach yourself to a metric that's gonna measure or that's that map. Sorry. Attach yourself to a KPI or metric that matters, that shows that progression, not an arbitrarily one.
Like, I clocked in on time every single day. I was in the seat. Yeah. I was in the seat for two years. I mean, those are those are good things.
Like, you should always clock in on time. And, you know, if you have been in a role for two years, that gives you a level of of experience. But I think those metrics are not the ones that matter when it comes to career progression and achieving goals.
[:Yeah. If you want to if you want to advance your career, you have to own something that matters. Right? And so that's revenue, that's profit, that's, a p and l or profit and loss statement. That could be a client relationship.
It could be a technology platform. Like, there's a lot of ways to slice that, but but you need to get as quickly as possible to own something that matters, that has a clear metric of success. Because at the the over the long haul of your career, that's what's going to matter more than how long you sat in anyone's seat.
[:So I I like I like where this is going. So let's talk about, you know, a number of junior roles or or roles that people move into, right out of college are typically like, account executive or a sales rep or something like that. Right? And, or even like a client success manager or someone that does client support. One of the biggest mistakes I see, rookie mistakes, if you will, is when people get a great relationship with the client or the prospect or whatever, but it doesn't actually translate into sales.
And then they wonder, like, well, why am I getting fired? You know, look at all these amazing relationships I've built. That goes back to, like, punching in on time. It's great you built the relationships, but if those relationships don't equate into value for the business, then your paycheck is not like, the pay to value return is not in balance. And so make sure, you know, building great relationships with customers, prospects, etcetera, is very important.
But the key thing is is actually getting the revenue from it. Now I'm not saying, you know, squeeze every dollar you can from it and lie, cheat, and steal to close the sale. I'm not saying that at all.
[:Right.
[:But you've gotta make sure you're not, you know, valuing the relationship over, the the metric that matters, the performance indicator.
[:Yeah.
[:And I've seen I've seen too many, junior account executives, support managers, etcetera, been terminated for lack of performance when they valued the relationship with all the customers.
[:Right. I've even seen people do that where they value relationships internally. Right? They're very well liked. They're very well connected.
They're very well networked around the organization. Everyone likes them. And that's great. That's not a bad thing, but there's a difference between results and relationships. And great organizations value both.
Good leaders value both. And if you're all about the relationships, but you're not gonna deliver results, your tenure your tenure there at your organization is gonna be a little bit shaky because if things go sideways financially, you're the first guy they're gonna get rid of because you're not delivering any results.
[:So you're saying the HR recruiters lie to you when they care about your ping pong score more than your work ethic? These tech companies, you know, show up to these tech companies that play ping pong all day. Like, we value the culture over productivity. You're saying those those HR recruiters are lying?
[:I wouldn't say they're lying. I would say it's true until it's not. Right? It's all fun and games until 11,000 people got laid off at Meta a couple weeks ago. Right?
You wanna know who the people are that are that still have jobs? They're the people who can tie their job to a hard metric that say, when I was here, that number was x. Now it's y. And if I'm gone, you're not sure what's gonna happen to that number. That guy still got a job.
[:Yep. Yep. Yep. So I did meet a a guy the other day that, large multinational I won't say any names. Large multinational organization, Swiss based.
Mhmm. And by implementing a program, in in one division in The US, saved hundreds of millions of dollars. Right. And then that got implemented globally that saved billions of dollars.
[:Mhmm.
[:Ended up leaving the company because there was no incentive for this work that was done. I mean, you got a a decent wage.
[:Yeah.
[:And then when everything broke because they patched the system that broke everything, He gave them the consultant rate, which was fair because of the billions of dollars they unsaved, and they went,
[:nah.
[:So that was a that was probably they got, like, a, you know, 20000% return.
[:Right.
[:Yeah. Right. That sucked.
[:The other thing I would say to my boys about your career is is that I would say understand that revenue is harder than you think it is. In an organization, the closer you are to where the where the money is made, the more your company is gonna value you, more than likely, the more you're going to get paid. And I think it's a lot easier to understand how a business really works when you get as close as you can to the transaction. Right? I spent early parts of my career in a lot of operational roles, supply chain and things like that.
And and it's really easy to be like, oh, this is stupid. Why did we do this? Why do you know, all these processes are broken. Right? A lot of complaining.
But oftentimes, for me, and I can't say this for everyone, but for me, a lot of it's because I didn't understand how hard it was to close a deal and get a client to pay you millions of dollars to do the kind of work that we were doing. And it wasn't until later in my career that I got into those kinds of roles, and I was like, oh, yeah. I don't care how many bodies I've gotta throw at that. We've gotta figure out how to get paid, figure out the rest of it later. And I think that there's a lot of people who get really frustrated because they're in HR, they're in operations, they're in a a support function within the business.
And, look, those are great roles. We need to do them. If you found what you're good at and you like it, that's awesome. But understand that at the end of the day, everyone gets paid because of that client sale transaction. And the closer you can get to that, the better for your career advancement.
[:So you're saying the sales tail wags the operation, dog?
[:In a lot of organizations, it does.
[:Revenue drives everything.
[:Revenue drives everything. And it's easy to be I call those sales guys. You know, they just play golf all day. It's like, some of them might, but if they bring in the money, I don't care what they do the rest of Friday afternoons. And just understanding that within an organization, the closer you move to the customer, the more opportunities you're gonna have, the better you get paid.
And for me, maybe another kind of corollary piece of advice there is if you are in more of a development, not a, like, business development, but, like, software development. Right? You're in operations. You're in customer success. You're in more of a support function.
It might be a good idea for you to start a side hustle where you have to learn some of the sales and marketing skills that are important in your organization. Because that skill of understanding, how do you find customers? How do you differentiate versus the competition, how do you keep customers, how do you bill, how do you invoice, how to make sure you get paid for the work that you're doing. Those are just kind of the fundamentals of business. But if you didn't go to business school or you didn't get a business degree and you studied French or you studied software engineering, you might not understand how that stuff works.
And if you don't understand how that works, you're going to be very limited in the ability to add value at higher and higher levels of an organization.
[:That's a good call out because that's that's just a level of not knowing. Right? I think sometimes in those other roles, they don't understand what happens on the other side. So it's easy to say, well, it's their problem or they've got it easy and we've got it hard. I I think at the end of the day, everybody in the organization has a lot of hard work to do.
[:Of course.
[:I think the other side is you were talking about being as close to the revenue as possible. I think the there's an opposite side of that is being as close to the expense management side as possible. Because if the expenses the think about how much money some of the finance people make to make sure those expense numbers are in line. Yep. And so I think there there are two sides of this.
Like, you don't have to work install like, all the money isn't just in the revenue generation side. It's also in the expense management side because, you know, revenue minus expense equals profit. I mean, technically, it should be revenue minus profit equals expense, but that's a different podcast for today.
[:Different podcast.
[:So but if you if if it's revenue minus expense equals profit and the expenses are out of control
[:Mhmm.
[:Companies pay good money to people that can keep the expenses in line with the percentages. Another one that I'll throw out there is I've seen a lot of people get frustrated because they see this inefficiency in a business, and and they get so frustrated because to them, it's so clear if they just fix this one thing, then they could fix all these other problems. I'll give you two components of it. Sometimes, it's just a math equation. And as long as the math equation's in balance, it doesn't matter how inefficient the business is because it's above a threshold.
[:Mhmm.
[:That's one. The other one is there may be something upstream you're missing that that inefficiency is by design or maybe not by design, but it it fits into the design because of something else somewhere else you don't see, and you're just seeing a very narrow view. And so I think there's a lot of, young professionals that get frustrated because they see those components, And it's it's kind of the perception is reality is now if you can bring that opportunity to your boss and you can fix it, that's kind of a that's in the win column. Right? And if the business ops it, and they adjust it, and and it's a win, and etcetera, rock on.
But when the business comes in and says, yep. It is what it is, or don't care, or it's within balance, or or, hey. There's something upstream that you're not seeing. I see too many young professionals, like, double down on it. It's like their vendetta to solve it.
And all they do is end up making enemies. Sometimes they get fired. They get frustrated, burned out, etcetera. And so I think it's when you run into those situations, like, there may be more to the story than you're aware of. So I challenge you to look broader than just get frustrated with that situation.
[:Yeah. It's usually because that organization has chosen to optimize for something else. Right. They're not optimizing for efficiency. They're optimizing for something else, and you might not be privy to that, or you might not have visibility to that.
But it's usually not stupid.
[:So I wanna I wanna transition to a pirate ship,
[:Okay.
[:Conversation, and you're gonna know where this comes from very fast. I think there's a level if you're a a young professional and you're in a pirate ship, you know, small business
[:Mhmm.
[:And there's an expectation that the vision is gotta be perfectly clear and spelt out. Your facial expression just said
[:Yep.
[:Is there is no amount of vision forecasting that can make the vision clear. I think the key thing is is if you don't understand the vision and you expect somebody else to make it clear, you're going you're shooting yourself in the foot and you're only gonna build your own frustration, and you're gonna make work suck for yourself wrong. You have to seek clarity in it, and sometimes there is you you have to work at getting to the clarity. Right. It's it's not like people just magically hide these things or don't wanna tell people.
Right. The visionaries often struggle to convey the vision. Right. So you if if you're in that situation and the vision is clear, don't sit there and go, well, if they just told us the vision more, or if they just did this, or they just did that, what can you do to seek to understand so that you can better understand the vision? Because I almost guarantee you, it's not that the vision is being withheld or they're not trying to tell you.
It's because they don't know how to communicate more than they already have. And usually, what I've also found is it's not that the vision's unclear. It's the vision is defined at this level that's beneath your threshold, your experience level.
[:Mhmm.
[:And the problem is is there's an experience gap between you and where the bottom of the vision is. And what you're doing is you're criticizing the visionary for not bringing the visionary down to your junior professional level.
[:To your level. Right.
[:Which is a management problem, an integrator problem, and stuff like that. Less of a problem in the in the navy, you know, the navy companies. But in the Right.
[:Bigger companies.
[:Yep. Yeah.
[:See It's so funny you say
[:that vision.
[:Yes. So So funny you say this. I was in a strategy session with a founder CEO and in the leadership team this afternoon, and there was a little bit of there was a moment of tension because the visionary was like, this is the vision. And somebody on the leadership team said, I've never heard you say that before. And the visionary said, this is all I say.
Like, I say this 10 times a day. And what they eventually discovered is that the visionary was doing a fantastic job communicating that message outward to the market, to customers, to partners, to potential employees, all this kind of stuff. However, the the internal processes did not exist to take that vision and massage it into every part of the organization. And so there was a disconnect. And he was sincerely saying that regularly and really felt like it was true because it is true to an extent.
Could it be true work? Yes. Absolutely. It needs to be broken down and worked into the organization. The challenge related to that is there was a lot of passive people who were like, well, you haven't explained to me how this vision, you know, meets my role, meets my responsibilities.
It's like, you gotta build that bridge from both sides. Right? Y'all gotta meet in the middle. The visionary has their job to do, but you have a job to do as well. Right?
You have to take that vision, take an understanding of your role, try to connect the dots, and then ask for feedback on how you're doing because it's not the visionary's job to explain how the vision pertains to every minute detail of your responsibilities.
[:Yep. And I'll and I'll throw something out there to back that up. There's a a I think it was a Kobe Bryant, real, like, friend shared with me on on Facebook. And he was talking about he's like, it's a game of numbers. It's a math equation.
[:Mhmm.
[:If you show up for basketball, if you if you practice three hours a day every single day, after a year, how well are you gonna be after two years, three years, etcetera?
[:Mhmm.
[:Whereas if you take another person that only practice, you know, maybe an hour twice a week for one year, two year, how well are they gonna what's the gap gonna be?
[:Huge.
[:Okay. Now let's let's take this into the professional world. If you've got somebody that's been in a professional world for twenty years and you've been in a professional world for five, how many more reps do you think they have? How much more knowledge do you think they have? That doesn't make them smarter, better, whatever, but they've just been playing the game far longer than you have.
They've got the experience. And I think what happens in that in a a junior professional coming into a a small business world is they don't have they can't they can't grasp the vision because they lack the experience to understand it, and they expect that visionary to bring it down. This goes back to, like, don't expect them to be your parents. They expect the visionary to spell it out and crayon for them
[:Mhmm.
[:When at the end of the day, what you need to realize is you still have a lot of learning to do. You are still a student. Just because you graduated college and started a job or you've been in a job for five years does not mean you have a black belt. You know what? Maybe you will.
You know, you're six sigma. You get your black belt. But you know what? There's actually degrees of black belt, and and most most karate instructors would say when you get your black belt, now the real learning begins.
[:Mhmm.
[:So I think there's a level of this goes back to I know we joked and started with lower your expectations.
[:Mhmm.
[:But the reality is is set proper expectations that meet reality. You don't have the experiences yet. You are learning. You have to continue to learn. You're not gonna be a master in two to three or four years.
You may master a skill, but you're not gonna master a career against somebody that's been doing it for twenty, thirty years in that same set.
[:Yeah. Absolutely. You
[:know, you you you don't expect career escalation on your time frame. It needs to be in partnership with you and the business, or you need to find another job.
[:Right.
[:You shouldn't expect your boss to spell everything out in crayon for you, and you shouldn't expect your boss to be a jerk asshole and and, you know, abuse you. Right?
[:Right. It's And I would
[:say my new boss.
[:Expect your compensation to rise at a similar rate to the value you're adding to the organization.
[:And I think tie it back to those KPIs that matter.
[:The easiest way to know your value to the organization is to own a number. Some number. Right? Whether it's server uptime or sales or profit or expense or customer satisfaction, like, some number that is the easiest way for you to know whether what your value is to the organization. And the bigger the number, the more important the number, the more you're gonna get paid.
And at the end of the day, don't we all just wanna get paid more?
[:Yes. We just kinda wrapped up our our notes there. Any final thoughts? Closing thoughts?
[:Attitude matters. Right? The basics matter. Understand how the business works. Right?
Begin trying to move closer to where the revenue comes from, because that's going to help you understand the context for just about everything that happens in that organization. So the closer you get to the customer and to revenue, the better you're gonna understand why things work the way they work. Get to a point where you own a number as quickly as possible. You know, be professional, be friendly, but value both results and relationships. You have to do both.
If you're only one or the other, your career will get, off the rails pretty quickly. Last piece of advice I would give is the world is changing very, very quickly, and technology is, man, just ravaging a lot of industries and places. I would say career wise, it would be wise to keep as many options available as possible rather than specializing too quickly, too narrowly. Like, if you know what you wanna do, you're really passionate about it, knock yourself out. But if you're unsure which path you should take, take the path that leaves the most doors open.
So, for example, when I graduated from college, my high school offered me a teaching job, to come back and be a math teacher and a soccer coach. Here's what I thought was interesting. I had studied zero teaching things in college. Right? It's not what I studied.
I studied engineering. Schools will always hire engineers to teach math. Engineering firms never hire teachers. Right? So engineering gave me the option to do both.
But if I had chosen to become a math teacher, I close a lot of doors that you can't get back open again or it's really hard to get open. So as you're making career decisions, that's both educationally but then also professionally, look for those opportunities that let you own a number, that you own something of value, and that keep your options open so that when you have done that role and you've had some success, you have more opportunities available to you than less.
[:I like it. I like it. So you started this out with how do we make work not suck. Let's do a podcast that our our children will listen to for career advice that will, you know, be life lasting. And so I think we've covered a a wide range there.
And at the end of the day, the whole goal is to make work not suck.
[:Mhmm.
[:Making work not suck takes two components. One, you have to own the success of your career. And two, you have to do it with others, but others can't do it for you.
[:Oh, that's good.
[:So That's really good. Make work not suck. You know what? I'm gonna I'll throw the I'm gonna throw the rule of three out there.
[:Go for it.
[:So this was part of, something I heard. I'm gonna butcher this. It was plus, minus, and and equal. To help advance your career, have someone that's ahead of you that you can Mhmm. Learn from, have peers that are equal with you that you can clash with, you know, per not not negatively clash with, but positively clash with to to push each other, and find people that are beneath you because there's always gonna be someone behind you that can learn from you.
Mhmm. And if you can find that balance in your professional career, you will, in fact, be better. You will grow. You will exceed, and and you will become better. And it will make work not suck for more people than just yourself.
[:Awesome. And boys, if you're listening to this, listen to our advice, but don't repeat any bad words that mister Hodges and I said.
[:Yes. Yes. Don't repeat our words. And I would say for the listeners, if you have a story or piece of advice or something like that, please drop it in the comments. We'd love to hear, and we look forward to, the next one.
[:Yeah. Thanks.
[:Make work not suck. Our podcast that talks about exactly that, our process, vision, journey, culture, and results. We present real world business solutions that make the difference. Our goal is to make work not suck, hosted by Ryan Hodges, co host Daniel Steer. Join us each episode and make work not suck.
