ICE Raids Are Back, And They're Hitting Legal Immigrants!

Daniel: What if I told you three out of five American workers are now afraid to go to work — and most of them are completely legal? Why are union leaders getting arrested for just watching immigration raids? And how do we get to the point where showing up to work feels like walking into a potential war zone?

Daniel: We're doing these raids, we're looking for the bad guys, we're going to go after the criminals. But then why are we targeting workplaces where people are actively contributing to society instead of focusing on actual criminal activity? Are these raids going out of control? Is the media twisting this? What's actually going on here?

Daniel: A lot of these undocumented workers are working very difficult jobs, dangerous jobs, or just low-paying jobs that quite honestly a lot of Americans don't want. Should we kick that person out too? I get the guy who's killed a dozen people — that one's easy. What about this person? Technically, yes, they have broken a law, they came into the country and were not supposed to. But they've been here for ten years, they've been a contributing member of society, they've got a job, they've got a family, they're contributing. That one's harder.

Ryan: "Protesters show up to ICE raid that raided a restaurant." Why are we raiding a restaurant? I get kind of what you were saying there. Yes, undocumented people are technically breaking the law. If you break a law, I guess technically that makes you a criminal. So if I jaywalked yesterday, I guess technically I'm a criminal and you should give me a ticket. Fine. We're also going to throw you out of the country? You're throwing me out of the country for jaywalking?

Daniel: I was working with a client a couple of months ago and they had a really great leader in their company who has an advanced degree. She's from India, she's here on a work visa, and she's terrified that the Trump administration's going to make some sort of a policy change and freeze things and she's going to get thrown out of the country. She's here legally, she is employed in a very high-paying job, and she's very good at her job. But there's just this background noise of anxiety because she has no idea what the administration's going to do.

Ryan: I think the boomers also were probably the generation that has leveraged the undocumented worker the most.

Daniel: Probably.

Ryan: Right. They're like, "Now this is my cue. Time to get out."

Daniel: Yes. I think there's also an opportunity to just lean into our humanity here — to understand and spend some time thinking, maybe even talking and getting to know people in this situation, because there's probably more undocumented people in your life than you realize.

Daniel: Welcome to the Make Work Not Suck podcast. Ryan, today I want to dive into something that's going to be a little sensitive, maybe a little touchy. We might offend a few people. But I want to talk about something that is affecting a lot of workers in America. It's ICE, the immigration raids, and how it is creating fear in a lot of work contexts for everyone — not just undocumented workers. I think it's making work suck for a lot of people, and I think we should spend a little time digging into what's going on, why does it make work suck, and what, if anything, can people do to help make work not suck.

Daniel: What if I told you three out of five American workers are now afraid to go to work, and most of them are completely legal? Why are union leaders getting arrested for just watching immigration raids?

Ryan: I haven't heard of that. That's crazy.

Daniel: How do we get to the point where showing up to work feels like walking into a potential war zone? This reminds me of the episode we did a little while ago about politics at the office and how polarizing certain topics are right now. I think this has got a lot in common with that episode. There's a lot of fear in the world right now, especially for people who are legal immigrants who might just look like an undocumented worker, even if they are completely legal. I've got some friends who have immigrated here to America, legally followed the process. They've probably learned more about US history than I know, and yet there's some anxiety there because they speak with an accent and they don't know what's going to happen. That's got to have repercussions in a variety of industries. I've never been in an ICE raid or seen an ICE raid, so I have no idea what this experience is.

Ryan: I've been on job sites. Go back a decade, and immigration shows up and guys scatter. I live in Texas, so that's not uncommon — but not to this extreme.

Daniel: Yeah, not this extreme.

Ryan: I was making some notes myself. I spent a lot of time working in food service. I've worked in construction, manufacturing, warehousing, and logistics. I am sure over the years, at some point, I have worked with people that were not documented.

Daniel: Yeah, I've never had that firsthand experience of somebody kicking in the door and taking people away. That sounds terrifying. That sounds awful. I don't know how anybody would try to get back to work, business as usual, when that's happened in your place of work. That sounds traumatizing.

Daniel: And here's what I'm — I hope this is going to get a little political, I guess. The comments have been made: "We're doing these raids, we're looking for the bad guys, we're going to go after the criminals." But then why are we targeting workplaces where people are actively contributing to society instead of focusing on actual criminal activity? Are these raids going out of control? Is it rogue branches of the government doing this? Are they following orders? Is what was told to us in the media a lie? Is the media twisting this? What's actually going on here?

Daniel: My guess is that what has been framed as a black-and-white issue has probably got a lot of shades of gray in between. This narrative of illegal immigration, undocumented workers, all of these convicted felons — I'm sure there are some bad people out there that don't belong here. But what about the workers that have been here for a long time? Maybe they entered illegally. So if you wanted to talk about, are they technically a criminal? Yes, they have broken a law by coming into a country without a passport, visa, et cetera. But they've been here for ten years. They've been working. They've been contributing to society. They've been purchasing goods and services. They've got a job doing something that a lot of people here in the States wouldn't do. A lot of these undocumented workers are working very difficult jobs, dangerous jobs, or just low-paying jobs that quite honestly a lot of Americans don't want. So should we kick that person out too? I get the guy who's killed a dozen people. That one's easy. What about this person? Technically, yes, they have broken a law. They came into the country and were not supposed to. But they've been here for ten years. They've been a contributing member of society. Got a job. They've got a family. They're contributing. That one's harder. And the Twitter sphere, or the X sphere, whatever we want to call it — with 140 characters, you can't handle nuance. You've got to be like, "They're all awful people." I just don't think that's really what's going on here, but we don't have the ability to have those more nuanced dialogues as a society. So I think there's a lot of good people getting swept up into this because we're not able to have a more subtle conversation.

Ryan: So while you were explaining that, I pulled up a news article.

Daniel: Okay.

Ryan: And the headline said, "Protesters show up to ICE raid that raided a restaurant." Well, why are we raiding a restaurant? I get kind of what you were saying there. Yes, undocumented people are technically breaking the law. If you break a law, I guess that makes you a criminal. So if I jaywalked yesterday, I guess technically I'm a criminal and should get a ticket. Fine. We're also going to throw you out of the country? You're throwing me out of the country for jaywalking? But shouldn't you be going after the employers that are employing undocumented workers? And shouldn't these raids, instead of going after the individuals, be going after the business owner? I also think there have got to be programs. And I know there are a few — don't get me wrong, they're very complicated, very complex, and these are vulnerable workers. But I know of a couple of companies where, if you go into these programs and you start the documentation process, then you're in the system. Now, it may take three to five years for you to get through the system. But at least you've started the process, and that protects you from deportation versus just everybody sweeping it under the rug. And I think that's what we're seeing — there's a lot of sweeping it under the rug. This just doesn't seem to make sense to me.

Daniel: Yeah, I know that there is some liability to the business owner. I don't know what the protections are there. How much rigor, how much of the onus is on the employer to look for those documents, to ask for those documents, to ensure they're valid — versus just saying, "Hey, raise your hand if you're not supposed to be here." Nobody raises their hand. "Okay, so we're good." It probably varies by state. But I do think it's an interesting thought experiment to start working through all these essential businesses. Restaurants, construction, lawn care, a lot of hospitality, the people who clean your hotel rooms — a lot of those jobs are being filled by undocumented laborers because a lot of Americans don't want that job and that job needs to be done. So what happens if you get rid of all of these undocumented workers? There's just this vacuum in several industries I can think of off the top of my head. So what happens next? What are the second-order, third-order effects of that?

Ryan: Well, if we go from the work-suck perspective — for one, if you're an undocumented illegal alien, is that still what we call them? Or is it undocumented worker? I don't know what the appropriate term is. I feel like this term has changed recently. I can see how showing up to work can be stressful, because you have no idea if immigration is coming. You're constantly looking over your shoulder, which probably contributes to a lack of performance. You're not focusing on the job, maybe prone to make mistakes. So that could make work suck.

Daniel: Right.

Ryan: I think on the other side, if the people that are doing the work are all of a sudden not there the next day, I bet the business still expects somebody to pick up that workload. They're not just going to shut the doors. So it's creating disruption. It's creating extra work for those that are US citizens or documented. It's creating angst for those that are not.

Daniel: But it's also creating angst for people who are here legally. I was working with a client a couple of months ago and they had a really great leader in their company who has an advanced degree. She's from India. She's here on a work visa. And she's terrified that the administration is going to make some sort of a policy change and freeze things and she's going to get thrown out of the country. She's here legally. She is employed in a very high-paying job and she's very good at her job. But there's just this background noise of anxiety because she has no idea what's going to happen. She could at any point in time just get thrown out of the country for legitimate or completely made-up reasons.

Ryan: So let's sit on that one for a second. Can the administration actually do that? I guess technically the executive branch, but I feel like there'd be lawsuits. And if you have the documented paperwork — I mean, all these agencies, and again, I guess there's corruption and whatnot, so set that aside for a minute. But these agencies have policies and procedures and guidelines they have to operate under. They can't just make up their own laws. So if you're legal and documented — like the individual from India, you've got a visa, you're here legally, you've got your paperwork — shouldn't they leave you alone?

Daniel: I mean, sure. They show up in your workplace and say, "Let me see your paperwork," you show your paperwork. That's probably embarrassing.

Ryan: I agree. But you shouldn't be fearful of getting deported because you have legal documentation. So where have we gone wrong here? Do we have mass media disarray because we don't like the current president? Do we have rogue branches inside of — I guess it's under Customs and Immigration? Do we have rogue agencies that are violating policy? Where's the chaos coming from? Because I've got to believe there's a little bit more stability than that. Though I do agree with people being concerned.

Daniel: Yeah. For instance, I have a VP of production for one company I work with. We're having our leadership meeting in California here in a few weeks. And she's double-checking and making sure all of her paperwork is legit, because she doesn't want to have any issues.

Ryan: Right. But again — taking the steps, making sure the visa is good, following through. I don't think that's what they're looking for. And especially when you're coming in through an international airport, I'm not hearing of raids of people landing in America and instantly getting deported. So where's this going wrong? Don't get me wrong, I know it's going wrong. But at this obscure level?

Daniel: Yeah, I don't know. I don't trust the government to get things perfectly correct. Even if they nail it 99 out of 100 times, for that one person who gets caught in the wrong place at the wrong time without their paperwork — their life, that's going to really suck for them. And that's unfortunate, and that's probably happened and probably is going to happen. That's more the line of my thinking. They're not perfect. I'm not saying they're doing it on purpose, but nobody's perfect. And they're moving really quickly. And I know I would be anxious if people who look like me, people who talk like me, people who live near me — whatever that association is — if they're all being targeted, it's not hard to think that I could get caught up in that. Even if I'm allowed to be here legally. And that just creates a context of anxiety you're going to take with you everywhere you go. That's going to impact your work and your family. And it just sounds awful.

Ryan: All right. So I have a question for you. There's what, roughly 300 million Americans — how many Americans are there right now?

Daniel: Three fifty. Depends on whether or not you count the illegals.

ght. So the US Census Bureau,: 2025

Daniel: Yeah. That's a rounding error.

the entire US for fiscal year: 2025

Daniel: Sure, of course. It's interesting that you bring this up while you're running your Power BI. I asked Tom, our producer, when we recorded last — he lives in LA — and I said, "Hey, is everything okay? Are you guys safe?" Because everything I'm seeing on the news is that the whole city of Los Angeles is on fire, and there's riots everywhere. And his comment was, "Oh no, that's just a little small part over there. It's not a big deal." And I was like, that is not what I'm hearing. Everybody's saying this is the apocalypse, head for the hills, all the cities are going to become — what was it, The Purge? The Purge has begun. And yet somebody who lives there in LA is like, "Oh no, it's not that big of a deal, it's just this little part over here." It makes me wonder how much the media is telling us the truth in terms of the magnitude of what's actually going on here.

ll United States, fiscal year: 2025

Daniel: Wow.

Ryan: By this dashboard, this would indicate that they're actually doing their job of going in and removing the real bad guys. Now, the question is: what do we call a convicted criminal in this case? Is this a first-degree felony, second-degree, third-degree? Is this murder, is this rape? Or is this a guy that had drugs on him and got a possession charge?

Daniel: Sure. I don't think we'll ever get the truth on all of that. Unpaid parking tickets?

Ryan: The unpaid parking tickets, that'd be ridiculous. But it goes to show, like you said — people that are documented, or people that work in a field that's predominantly undocumented or trying to become documented, whatever it may be — it's creating a lot of angst. We had two examples of people we work with and both of them are legal and it's stressing them out. So we're literally making work suck because of — we don't know — media hype or bad policy.

Daniel: Yeah. Or bad implementation of policy.

Ryan: Or bad implementation of policy. Yep. So here's another one. We'll go to the media side of this. This is on NBC News. Apparently there's a report that ICE threatened to fire leaders of field offices that posted in the bottom 10% of arrest numbers. So if your field office was in the lower 10% of arrest numbers monthly, then you could be replaced. Talk about making work suck. Now your job is to enforce these raids or you're fired. I don't know how true this is. This is saying someone pushed this information out there and someone picked it up. I haven't read the full article to that extent. But they're talking about including more than 5,000 personnel from immigration and 21,000 National Guard troops to enforce these raids. The plan is calling for 3,000 ICE agents, including 1,800 from Homeland Security.

Daniel: So what happens in these industries — construction, food service, hospitality, manufacturing, a lot of food processing? These are not sexy jobs. These people are working very hard for probably not a ton of money. If Americans aren't willing to do the jobs and undocumented workers are, and then you kick out the undocumented workers, do these industries just collapse? Do you have to start raising the rate that you pay to attract workers? You'd have to start paying more, I'm guessing.

Ryan: I guess. This is where I get crossed, because again, looking at that dashboard, it seems like it's not as bad as — like you said, a rounding error, if this dashboard is correct. I also know companies we work with. Actually, there's a law firm I know that specializes in immigration law and getting undocumented workers documented. They predominantly work in landscaping and construction — businesses that have historically had undocumented workers. And they have programs that help them get through the process. This company has been going gangbusters for the past several years, because several years ago they started cracking down on the employers. That's the E-Verify system that's been out for years. They've been cracking down on the employer side for at least a decade that I can remember. So I know it's gotten hotter and hotter on the employer side, and a lot of these people are going, "I will bite the bullet and get my people in this program because it will put me clean and clear as an employer. It gets them in the federal tax system, where they should be."

Ryan: I feel like what should be happening now is the government should be helping those companies. Almost like — I was in Indiana this past weekend, and I'm going to butcher this, but it's like the Lifeline Law. I'm probably butchering the name. But the law states that if you are under the influence of alcohol or a drug, and you help somebody get medical attention who has consumed way too much alcohol, alcohol poisoning, on the verge of dying, or they've overdosed — if you get them help, then you are immune from getting in trouble yourself, because it values saving the life. They want people to save the life as opposed to, "I'm afraid of getting in trouble, so I'm not going to call the cops because I'll get in trouble if I try to save this person."

Daniel: Okay, so it's kind of a Good Samaritan law.

Ryan: Good Samaritan, yes. You will not be punished if you get medical attention for an individual that is in a serious health crisis. I feel like we need programs like that. Raise your hand, jump in line in this program, and get your undocumented workers documented.

Daniel: Yeah, but you're assuming a level of trust there that I think a lot of people don't have. "Raise your hand if you're an illegal immigrant and we'll put you in the process to become a naturalized citizen." I would be really curious how many people would raise their hand.

Ryan: Well, I think this would be from the employer standpoint, less from the employee standpoint. But I think we need extra things like that to solve this problem. I'm not saying that's the be-all end-all. I'm not saying it's going to be 100% successful. It's got flaws in it as well. But I think it's things like that — partnerships that need to happen with industry. Now, don't get me wrong, there are people that say, "Well, that's not fair. I've been paying taxes for 20, 30, 40, 50 years. They shouldn't just get a free pass and not pay taxes. They should pay back taxes. They should be deported." I get that — as an American citizen you've been in the system, you've done all the right things, and it's not fair. But at some point, we have to level-set and solve the problem. Just raiding people, raiding businesses to get people out of the country, does not seem like the most effective thing. It's not a solution to the problem other than making people scared and panicked. But if there was — I don't know if I'd call it an amnesty program — but employers could raise their hand and say, "I've got three undocumented workers. I will pay to get them into the program and get the process going." Why wouldn't we? Isn't that what we want? Ultimately, what we want is undocumented workers to be documented and part of society.

Daniel: So I wonder if we're turning this into a binary that doesn't need to be. The argument of should these people be here or not here, documented or not documented, pay taxes, vote, all these kinds of things. What if there was a middle criteria? Maybe you don't get to vote, maybe you don't have other privileges that come with being a citizen, but you're allowed to be here, you're allowed to work, and we can have some sort of taxable component to your income. So everything's above board, but we separate citizenship from employability.

Ryan: That's basically a green card.

Daniel: Then there need to be more on-ramps for green cards.

Ryan: Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. There just needs to be a means to solve the problem. And at the end of the day, if these raids really are pulling out people that are serious criminal offenders — I guess this is my ignorance coming through here — but if there's a guy working in a restaurant who was a serial killer that has found Jesus and is a good Samaritan now, I find that really hard to believe. That just doesn't sound like the scenario. Sure, statistically there's one or two in eight billion people, but something doesn't smell right in this whole thing. And if we're creating too much angst at work, we're creating too much policy and procedure in organizations, we're putting more HR policy in place to protect against this — we're making HR departments' jobs harder. We're potentially increasing the cost of labor. We're just making everything worse.

Daniel: Right. I do think some of this is a shock-and-awe strategy. A couple of true stories that get out of people kicking in the door of a restaurant and taking out the fry guy because he's an illegal immigrant — a couple of those stories get out, and the people who don't belong here probably start thinking twice about whether or not they want to stay. I'm sure that's part of the strategy: you make a couple of statement moves and some people begin to self-select out. The consequence, whether it's intended or unintended, is that there's a lot of other people who get anxious too. I think you're right — on a percentage basis, the number of arrests seems to be pretty small relative to the size of the population. So this is not happening every day, everywhere. But it's happening enough that it's rattling people.

Daniel: Let's talk about this from a generational perspective. That's always an interesting lens to look at things through. Different generations tend to have different views on immigration, workplace rights, fair treatment of workers. How do you think the boomers think about this?

Ryan: Well, I think they're the generation of "I've paid taxes, I've worked hard all my life, why do they get a free pass?" A lot of them are at retirement age, probably disconnected from the workplace these days, or getting more disconnected, and not really wondering why we're all upset. I've also talked to a number of baby boomer business owners that are just tired of it. They just want to get out of the business. They'll sell it to anybody because it's getting harder and harder to run a business. They've done it for 30 years and they're like, "Look, I just want to go retire." I think they're tired of the BS. And as the resident Gen X, I think the boomers also were probably the generation that has leveraged the undocumented worker the most.

Daniel: Probably.

Ryan: Right. They're like, "Now this is my cue. Time to get out."

Daniel: Yes. All right. As the resident Gen Xer, how do Gen Xers balance the corporate liability? A lot of these people are in management roles now. They're in the prime of their career. How do you balance that versus human decency?

Ryan: I think this is a really difficult topic for Gen Xers who are in these leadership roles. They're older, so they're in their forties. They more than likely have family, people depending on them. They've got a little bit more of that human element of thinking about more than just themselves. I see this being really hard for them, because we understand on one side that systemically you can't support — I think I read somewhere it's like 10 million people have come into America through undocumented channels in the last five to ten years. That's a massive amount of people. Now, some of them left and some of them come back, I don't know. But 10 million people is a lot of people. Just as a system, as a society, we can't support that. You can't have 10 million extra people on the healthcare system with the same number of people paying into it. The system starts to break. You get that. But then you've also got the human side of, "Yeah, but I've worked with this guy for years and I know his family and I care about him and he needs a job and his next best option is pretty crappy." That's hard.

Daniel: Yeah. I think when you start looking at the millennial side, it's like, "Can we just solve this problem?" I'm going to guess the Gen Zs are definitely more on the solve-this-problem side, but probably more theoretical about the problem just because they're younger in the workforce.

Ryan: Aren't all Gen Zs communists? They're just like, "Why can't we all just get along?"

Daniel: Oh, I'm going to love that one. I think millennials are in between the Gen Xers and the Gen Zs. The older millennials have worked alongside some of these individuals. There's the history. And then in the middle you've just got, "Can we just solve this problem, because we've been hearing about it for 20 years?" It's not a new problem. It's not even a 20-year problem. It probably goes 20, 30, 40 years before that. It's just more polarizing in the past decade or so.

urther than that. Even in the: 1800

Daniel: Yeah. All right. So how do we improve it? This is complex — there's not going to be point solutions. We're going to need systemic changes that could address some of the immigration issues without terrorizing workers across industries. I think the first one that comes to my mind is there need to be more pathways to green cards. Whether those are skilled or unskilled laborers, if somebody's here and they want to work, we need to find a way to make that possible for them. If they're here and they don't want to work, they want to cause trouble, or they just want to freeload — that's, in my opinion, a different kind of person, and I'm not very interested in taking them on as a society. But if you want to work, I don't have a problem with you being here. Now, should you vote? Should you be able to take Social Security and get health insurance? Complicated. Probably not, in my opinion. But there are too many jobs that need to be done and not enough people to do them. There need to be pathways for people who want to work to do so legally, independent of the broader political consequences. That's my first recommendation.

Ryan: I don't know if I really have a good recommendation. We can't control what the government's doing, and we can't predict what they're going to do or how it's going to change. I think if you're an employer, the best thing you can do is look for one of these programs I mentioned. I wish I knew the name of the program better. The best you can do is try to get your people in the program as fast as possible. If you're an individual, try to get on one of those programs as fast as possible. If you've got proof that you've started the process, I think you're okay. I'm not a lawyer, so don't take my word for it — get legal advice somewhere else. But I don't really know what advice we can give to make it not suck.

Daniel: I think maybe a sanity check, or a calibration. Look, if you look at the numbers here, what's actually happening doesn't match the rhetoric of any news channel. Regardless of which channel you watch, neither of them is telling you the truth — at least based on the data that you were pulling and some data I'm seeing elsewhere as well. This is not as common as people are making it out to sound. I think hopefully that will help a lot of people who are here legally but do feel anxious to take a deep breath and realize that that's not as likely as the news makes it feel.

way, removals. In fiscal year: 2025

Daniel: Yeah, there's a flow there that's not clear.

Ryan: That's not clear. But even still — let's just add those two numbers together, 80,000. That's a good number, but still a very small percentage of the population. But even if you work at a roofing company that has 100 people and 15 of them are now gone, that's devastating.

Daniel: To your direct business, to your coworkers — you are directly impacted.

Ryan: Eighty thousand out of 350 million is a rounding error.

Daniel: Five out of 100 — okay, that's notable. I do think what's interesting is to think about immigration as it intersects with automation. As robotics continues to advance, how many of these jobs that are currently held by undocumented workers just get done by robots? How does that change the total landscape? Maybe there's just not as many roofers, or there's not as many people working in the back of restaurants because there's Flippy the burger robot doing it for you. I think that's going to be very interesting to see over the next ten years — how those two dynamics intersect.

Ryan: Yeah, I agree with that. That's just natural progression anyway. Anytime you can use automation or AI or robotics to have an employee that works around the clock and is not an actual employee. The technological progression will help, but that still doesn't solve the influx of people trying to get in. Let's just take a hypothetical. Do you end up with a situation where you have a flood of immigrants that don't have jobs? Then what do you do?

Daniel: Yeah, I think that becomes a very scary scenario. You're seeing a lot of that in Europe right now. It's breaking several European countries. I think that's a very bad scenario. Again — if people come and they want to work, they find a job and they want to work hard, awesome. Welcome. If you're not here to work and you're just here to freeload, I don't think we can handle that. I don't think the system is built to handle that much. I love the social programs that we have that provide safety nets to people. But if the whole world shows up, those safety nets break.

Ryan: All right, sorry. I've got a few more stats for you.

Daniel: Bring it on.

Ryan: When I was looking at the removals, I didn't realize there was an arresting agency filter here. The removals were 47,000 individuals. When I filtered to just ICE — so that'd be the immigration raids and whatnot — only 731. The other 47,000, the bulk of it, was actually Customs and Border Patrol. That's people crossing the border, airports, et cetera. So most of what we're removing is people getting caught walking across the border.

Daniel: Wow. That's not raids.

Ryan: All right, let's go to detentions. Let's see what ICE has for detentions. The current number for both agencies is 40,866. ICE detainees: 1,933. Still pretty small as a percent. I go back to the raids. I'll be curious to watch this month over month and see if it ticks up for June and July. But I think the raids themselves are probably only impacting a small percentage of people — but for the people that are impacted, it probably makes work suck. That's not to dismiss those that have been impacted by it, that have actually witnessed a raid, that have gone through a raid, that are working harder because of a raid. This is not to diminish them in the slightest, because that is real for them. On the grand scheme, it's a very small impact on society.

Daniel: Yeah. All right, so let's wrap it up. How do we help make work not suck? I would say if you're a senior leader in an organization, you need to understand the liabilities to you and to the company. I like the idea of embracing the processes that do exist. I don't think there are enough of them, but embrace the process of: okay, if we do have some undocumented workers, we need to encourage them to get into the process and provide some kind of safe on-ramp for them. I think there's also an opportunity to just lean into our humanity here. Spend some time thinking, maybe even talking and getting to know people in this situation, because there's probably more undocumented people in your life than you realize. That's going to create a lot of anxiety for them. There might not be anything you can do about it, but to at least be aware, to be sensitive, to be helpful where you may be able to — I think that's part of the reason why people come to America. Because there's a lot of people here who really do care. I think we need to remember that, especially during difficult times like this. Those are my two cents.

Ryan: Well, I like it. Then I want to throw this out there. As we opened up — and I don't know where the stat came from — but three out of five American workers are afraid to go to work, and most of them are completely legal. If three out of five Americans, that's 204 million out of 341 million.

Daniel: Well, I'm just — okay, three out of five American workers. I don't know.

Ryan: We'll just run with the general stats. It's probably only about a hundred million workers out of 340 million.

Daniel: Man, we've got a lot of lazy people then.

trust it, says as of October: 2024

Daniel: Wow. Gosh, that's a big number.

Ryan: So 96 million people fearing for their job right now, according to that stat — when we pulled the ICE dashboard from the government site showing less than a hundred thousand people. And that was assuming the two stats go together. That's us adding them together, and they don't go together. That's the worst-case scenario. If it's detentions and then removals, then it's really closer to 50,000. So why do we have 96 million people fearing for their job right now?

Daniel: I think the big one right now to help make work not suck is maybe we need to look at what's actually going on.

Ryan: Yeah. Maybe we should do a little more research. Maybe we should not trust news outlets — not like anti-media, but if there really are a hundred million people fearing for their jobs, for a hundred thousand people that actually got caught and detained? That's like 0.1% of the workforce.

Daniel: And I would say, as an employer — if all of your people are appropriately documented, everybody's done their E-Verify and I-9s, you're in complete compliance. Even if you're a green card or a visa holder. I think as an employer you can take steps to reassure people: "Hey, we have all your documentation. If for any reason whatsoever somebody shows up, we've got your back, because we've got good paperwork."

Ryan: That's a good recommendation. That's something that every employer and senior leader should do — make sure that they've got their documentation ready so that nobody has to be worried about a mistake.

Daniel: Yep. And if you are the employee in this situation, you're on a green card or a visa, I think go to your HR department and say, "Hey, is all my paperwork good and up to date? So if something comes up, you can properly defend me. You can vouch for me. You can make sure I'm clear." I think that's within your right — to request that your HR department make sure your paperwork is on point. Because at the end of the day, we cannot control what's going on. Somebody could erroneously walk into an office in a downtown major political area and just start going through the records and start pulling people. We cannot control that. We cannot predict it. I would hope something that stupid will not happen. But the best thing you can do is just make sure your documentation is clean and clear and ready, both at home and at work. If you can at least do that, that's probably the best peace of mind you can have. Because to have 96 million people afraid to go to work, even if they're legal — that is the real problem.

Ryan: Yeah. What kind of society have we created?

Announcer: Make Work Not Suck — the podcast that talks about exactly that. Our process, vision, journey, culture, and results. We present real-world business solutions that make the difference. Our goal is to make work not suck. Hosted by Ryan Hodges, co-host Daniel Steer. Join us each episode and make work not suck.