Breaking the Monotony: How to Make Repetitive Work Less Soul-Crushing

Daniel Steere: 00:00

Well, welcome to the Make Work Not Suck podcast. I am your co-host, Daniel Steere, here with Ryan Hodges. And I wanted to have a conversation today about monotonous tasks. When you think about all the things that suck about work, and there’s definitely a lot that we could talk about there, if you zoomed in on just one of them, one of the things you could zoom in on is monotonous tasks. Right? Having to do the same thing over and over and over again, oftentimes not even knowing if you’re making a difference.

Announcer: 00:38

Welcome to the Make Work Not Suck podcast.

Daniel Steere: 00:41

Ryan, I’m gonna ask you in a second about your most monotonous job. But for me, worst monotonous job was a summer internship with a chemical manufacturer. It was supposed to be like an engineering internship, but it took them months to get the paperwork all ironed out. And so they were like, hey, could you just work on the assembly line for, like, just a couple of days, until we get all the paperwork ironed out? And I’m like, sure. Like, I’ll be a team player. And I spent 6 weeks, I think, standing there watching little bottles of pills whiz by, and I was, you know, quality control quote-unquote for this manufacturer. I mean, 8 hours a day of just, like, standing there watching little bottles of pills or packets or whatever. I mean, it just, like, I can’t even begin to tell you how boring it was. And, you know, maybe later in the episode, we’ll share a little bit about what I did with that. But, like, it was one of my first jobs and by far the most monotonous, boring, felt worthless job. So Ryan, how about you? Most monotonous job.

Ryan Hodges: 02:04

Oh, mine was when I was 17, 18 years old. I was doing data cable work, and it was doing punch-downs on data jacks. It is the same 8 wires, just punch punch punch, go to the next cubicle, punch punch punch. Go to the next cubicle, punch punch punch. 100 and 100 and 100 of times. It just and and then and then you’d have to go back and test it, and you realize you screwed one up. You have to go back and redo it all over again. So then it became a game of, like, how many can I get right before I screw up? That was the only way to make it any bit of fun, but it was the same rinse and repeat. And you had to do it twice because you had to do it on the one end of the cable, and then you had to go back and do it on the patch cable or patch panel side. So, yeah, you you had to punch 8 little teeny tiny wires that, you know, were had to sit there and fiddle with your fingers, poke you and…

Daniel Steere: 03:01

Are you, like, under a desk in the dark trying to get that done? Okay. Yeah.

Ryan Hodges: 03:05

You need a small tool, then you’re laying under the cubicle trying to unwind these little wires and then get them in the little thing that punched the tool. That was, that it’s not a fun job.

Daniel Steere: 03:15

Yeah. You know, it’s funny that you, you said you had to kinda make a game for yourself of how many can I do before I screw one up? I started playing a game, while I was working on the assembly line, which is, like, how far could I let the stuff back up and still catch up? Right? So, like, I think I had to box at one point, I had to box all the pills into a box, and it came at a decent pace, but it was just boring. And so, like, I would leave and go to the bathroom and come back and see if I could, you know, really fast try to catch up, before I got in trouble, which was just the only way I could entertain myself in an 8-hour shift on the assembly line. But I don’t know. Maybe that’s a strategy we’ll discuss, later. So okay. We’ve both worked stupid crappy jobs that have had a lot of monotony. Let’s step back from those examples for a second because I think everyone probably has had an example like that or, God forbid, you’re there now. Right? You’re in a crappy monotonous job. You do the same thing for hours and hours and hours, and you hate it and may or may not even make a difference whether or not you do your job. Right? How do we make that better? Like, what do you like, what would you do if you had a magic wand and you could go back to that job, that was so monotonous? What would you do to make it better? How would you make that not suck? There you go. There’s your question.

Ryan Hodges: 04:56

Make work not suck. You know, it’s it it’s a hard one to say what I would do if I could wave my magic wand because there’s a couple things I can say. It’s really easy. I would I would have explained why this was important and figured out the mission we’re trying to achieve and, you know, the the more the faster efficient we can do it, you know, the more money as an organization we recover by not paying extra, you know, time to do it or, you know, we we give a good product and the data cables are good, which means that employees that will be sitting in that cubicle have a, you know…

Daniel Steere: 05:30

Yeah. Sorry. There I need a button somewhere that’s, like…

Ryan Hodges: 05:32

Yeah. I just…

Daniel Steere: 05:34

Like or gong. I’m gonna get a gong.

Ryan Hodges: 05:37

You’re gonna get a gong? Just be like, gong.

Daniel Steere: 05:40

Like, ugh. That sounds terrible.

Ryan Hodges: 05:43

I know. That’s what I’m saying. I’m like, that that that’s that’s that’s what like, as the business guy, that’s what I would say. But maybe that’s the manager’s approach. Maybe that’s the problem is that’s what managers think they need to do to fix the monotonous task. But, like, to actually fix it, I mean, there are some people out there that really enjoy just the repetitive work. They love showing up. They love they love doing the the the job, and it’s consistent. They like that consistency. They love the repetitive work, and they get pride out of doing, you know, quality work day in, day out. And so the question is, like, is it is it a matter of, like, how do you make that job not suck? Or is it how do you not get yourself into that job? Or if you’re in that role, how do you leverage yourself getting out of it because you needed to pay you know, you needed a job to pay the bills, and that just have to be what it is. And that’s just you’re just not one of those monotonous task type of people.

Daniel Steere: 06:35

Yeah. You know, it’s it’s really interesting you bring that point up because, when I was a kid, I would mow lawns for money in the summer. And, you know, it was a pretty monotonous job because you’re just, you know, kinda go back and forth, back and forth. But now that I’m a homeowner and I work in, you know, much more of an abstract, you know, long-term projects that could take years or hardly know if you’re making a difference sometimes with some clients, I actually like mowing my lawn now because it’s like I could actually see something completed. Right? It’s like I start and I finish and it’s done and it’s good and I know that it’s done and I know that it’s good. And I haven’t thought about the fact that there’s probably some people that don’t mind those kinds of jobs because you can actually know at the end of the day, I did my job. I did it well, and I’m done.

Ryan Hodges: 07:31

Well, you couple things there. Right? So, like, when I was thinking about when I was a kid mowing, I gamified it.

Daniel Steere: 07:36

Of course, you did.

Ryan Hodges: 07:38

And you because when I was a younger kid, it was it was, you know, how fast could I go, and then I would always get in trouble because then there would be all the little patches.

Daniel Steere: 07:42

Right.

Ryan Hodges: 07:44

Like, mow the whole lawn again, and then I spent twice as long as I had…

Daniel Steere: 07:46

Right. So then it losing the gamified version.

Ryan Hodges: 07:54

Right. So then it then it then it became, like, how do you do it as fast as you can and get told you did a good job? So, you know, that’s that’s something from that standpoint, but then you go back to, you know, homeowners and lawns now. There’s a sense of pride in it. Right? And and you own it. Right? Like, you own the lawn and you want it to look good, and you want it to be enjoyable for your family or whatnot. But that goes back to what I was talking about with, like, we get into the business world. Put a why behind it and the value behind it that I got gonged for.

Daniel Steere: 08:14

Yeah.

Ryan Hodges: 08:15

And that’s the same thing. Is there some sort of pride or value behind that monotonous work versus when you’re doing the monotonous work for somebody else? If you’re not invested in it and you don’t have a reason to work for it and you don’t know what the value is on the other side, it’s work sucks.

Daniel Steere: 08:42

Yeah. Yeah. So maybe we need to break down monotonous work into different kinds of monotonous work. Right? Because what I think I’m hearing is that not all monotonous work is the same. And depending on maybe your personality and how you’re wired. You know, maybe you like just things that are very, very clear and obvious and straightforward. There’s no uncertainty. It’s like, you know, make the doughnuts. And there isn’t a question about, you know, should I invest in this AI software? It’s like, nope. Make the doughnut. That’s your job. Maybe that that appeals to some people, and so that’s probably a class of monotonous jobs. It’s just people who actually like it. And I think there’s also this level of ownership. Right? If it’s something that you feel a sense of ownership around, I think it doesn’t make the monotony okay, but I think it makes it a lot easier to tolerate if there’s something about it that you feel a sense of ownership of. So then where does it break down with the managers who are trying to create a sense of ownership?

Ryan Hodges: 10:08

Well, you’ve got, you know, now a secondary problem. Right? You know, in a scenario where you got the 3 tiers, you’ve got the executive, the manager, and the employee. Well, if the employee is not bought into what they’re doing and understand what’s going on with it, then you get to the manager. The manager’s being forced to hit up, you know, a quota, a production quantity, or whatever, and so now you’ve got this person that’s, if they’re not bought into it, now you’re trying to get a bought-in person to convince a non-bought-in person to do, you know, repetitive tasks, and, well, that just sounds like a death spiral to me.

Daniel Steere: 10:41

Yeah. I can’t imagine they’re gonna be very successful.

Ryan Hodges: 10:44

I don’t want to walk into this place. I feel like I’m gonna, you know, be depressed just watching it.

Daniel Steere: 10:49

Right. It feels like an episode of The Office. It just… yeah. It kinda makes your skin crawl. Alright. Well so then what do you do if you’re a manager, and you’ve got a bunch of people working for you that have monotonous jobs?

Ryan Hodges: 11:10

You know, really, it’s just ask your people what they value in life. Like, what’s their life’s work? What’s their mission? What do they find pride in? And I’m willing to bet you’ll find some sort of correlation if they’re the kind of person that likes doing those repetitive tasks, which is correlation to what they’re doing in their job and what their passion is, in their personal life. And really, it’s just bridge the gap. I mean, I know it sounds overly simplified, but it’s connecting that value that their work brings and how it helps them achieve their life goals. If you can connect the personal and the professional together, then it actually makes can make work a little bit more enjoyable even if you’re doing the same thing every single day.

Daniel Steere: 11:53

Yeah. That’s true. What would you do with somebody who doesn’t, who doesn’t have a life goal? Like, I’ve got a client of mine who’s a Chick-fil-A operator, hires a lot of Gen Z employees. Right? So you’ve got kids that are 16, 18, maybe still in college, 21 years old, and you’re like, what’s your life goal? And they’re like, I wanna get drunk this weekend.

Ryan Hodges: 12:30

See. No. You’re confusing, you know, our generation, the older generation with the younger generation. I guarantee you, they know what they wanna do.

Daniel Steere: 12:36

Okay.

Ryan Hodges: 12:37

The older generations are the ones that just wanted to go party and drink on the weekend.

Daniel Steere: 12:41

Oh, okay. Alright. Clearly, I’m not a Gen Z.

Ryan Hodges: 12:44

If you ask a Gen Z, I guarantee you the problem they don’t want to do is they want, you know, something more than that. They want a, you know, $100,000 salary doing this world-changing thing and skip the, you know, climbing the ladder component. So that’s a different problem.

Daniel Steere: 12:50

Yeah. Alright. Well, let’s go back to this idea of different kinds of monotonous jobs. Right? So some of those jobs, some people will actually like because there’s a sense of accomplishment, there’s a sense of achievement, and maybe it ties to their life purpose.

Ryan Hodges: 13:09

Checking the box. There are people that love to check the box. If I can check 15 boxes today, I feel like I’ve contributed to society.

Daniel Steere: 13:17

But, I mean, I’ve got a little bit of that. I love checking a good box. But then there’s but then there’s others. Right? Like, I’ve had a friend or I’ve had people that I know, coworkers, who, like, spend hours every week preparing the same report, pulling all of this data out of this, report and putting it into this spreadsheet so that it can go to this person, so that it can go to this person. I just think, like, deep in the bowels of some giant bureaucracy, and your job is just to take some information from one place, hand it to the next place, and that, I think, is a different kind of monotony. What would you what would you do to the employee or the manager in that situation?

Ryan Hodges: 14:13

Okay. So you’re in the middle of the big cog machine, bureaucracy. Right? So you’re probably not gonna find connectedness to work. But at the end of the day, you’re doing a job to help somebody else do their job, to help somebody else do their job. So find the colleague down the line and what what they’re what what are they doing with your data? Maybe find interest in what they do with it. You know, what does your work produce, and who’s on the other side of that, if you can. In some cases, you can’t. Maybe just do the best you can. But if you can find who’s on the other side of it, they’re human too. They’re trying to do a job too, and that’s building a little bit of culture there. You know, the culture of the organization could be amazing. It could be total shit, but that doesn’t mean your world has to suck. Right? So if you’re part of a process where there’s other people around you, figure out how it connects with their job, and then see if you can find joy in helping them be better. Or if you do your work better, then, you know, it removes stress or frustrations down the line. And you might find your job more enjoyable because you know the person down the line and the impact you know how it fits in, even if the culture of the organization, you know, is good or bad.

Daniel Steere: 15:25

Yeah. That’s good. I would say, again, not to not to circle back to your to the to your answer that got gonged, but I do think that as an employee, it can be valuable to go to your manager and say, why are we doing this this way? Yes. Right? Can you explain to me why why this is the way we do it? Right? And you gotta be a little careful there because it can sound like complaining. It can sound like you’re being lazy and and not wanting to work. Right? So you gotta make sure you phrase that correctly and at the right time. But if you can sincerely ask, hey. Can you just explain this to me? I don’t get why I’m taking all this information from this place and putting it over here. It can foster a conversation where sometimes things are being done simply because they’ve always been done, and the reason that they were started no longer applies. And I’ve seen that in a ton of organizations where, like, oh, well, yeah, you’ve gotta get the, you know, the TPS reports out. And it’s like, well, well, how come? Like, who who reads the TPS report? And they’re like, oh, corporate reads the TPS reports. And I was like, okay. And I call corporate, and I was like, hey. What do you guys do with those TPS reports? And they’re like, what do you mean TPS reports? They’re like, oh, that just goes to a to an empty mailbox. We don’t even check that. We haven’t looked at that in years. And I was like, oh my gosh. These people are wasting hours of their life every week for a report that they think is important that nobody’s looking at. Right? So and that happens in more places than you think. So just asking the question again with with a good intent and a good spirit of, hey, can somebody explain to me the big picture of how what I’m doing fits into what this organization is trying to do? It might not be my life purpose. We might not be curing cancer, but but if I at least know how my piece fits into the bigger puzzle, I can maybe take a little pride in it, or then potentially identify things that are being done that we should just stop doing.

Ryan Hodges: 17:08

Well, let’s let’s let’s walk that one a little bit. So let’s put this from the employee perspective. You know, nothing gets solved or fixed by bitching about a problem. Managers have enough things to deal with. Right? Like, the manager is getting stuff from the top, they’re getting stuff in the bottom, they’re being squeezed. So as an employee, what’s one thing you can do to help make work not suck is not be a pain in your manager’s ass. Right?

Daniel Steere: 17:38

Yeah.

Ryan Hodges: 17:38

Genuinely, I think you’re right. You’re right. Ask. Right? But it’s when you go up and go, like, why do we do this? I don’t get it. I waste my time every day. You’re you’re coming at it as a problem. Whereas you you can phrase it in the sense of, look, you want to make your work not suck? Just walk with your manager and go, I would like to learn the value behind this so I can better do my job.

Daniel Steere: 18:12

I like that. That’s a better way of asking it.

Ryan Hodges: 18:15

And you know what? That’s that’s it’s very it’s it’s the same you get to the same point, and I think this is where sometimes we’re frustrated with it. And so we just want to go the the bitchy route. Right?

Daniel Steere: 18:26

Mhmm.

Ryan Hodges: 18:27

But but, okay, take a step back and go, I if you really want to solve the problem, make work not suck. Just change the the the way you approach the question. I want to understand the value in this so I can better do my job. I’m tired of doing a a I’m tired of this this sucky work, and I want it to be more meaningful. So can you teach me or show me or show me how I can learn where this better fits? I said, because then I if I understand it more, I can, you know, be better at it. You know what a manager’s gonna do? Hey. That’s either a great question. Let me let me you know what? I don’t know the answer myself. Let me figure it out. Or, hey. You know what? Why don’t you ask Bob for some training? Or, hey. Let me sit down and explain it with you. You know what? From a manager’s perspective, that’s going to make their day because now they feel like they’re connected to the employee.

Daniel Steere: 19:23

Right. And if you’re…

Ryan Hodges: 19:24

No.

Daniel Steere: 19:24

No, that’s…

Ryan Hodges: 19:25

you just took a problem off your boss’s plate, which makes you… I don’t want to say, look, you know, trying to be the hero, but now you’ve got… you’re working together. It’s collaboration.

Daniel Steere: 19:35

Right.

Ryan Hodges: 19:36

And then, of course, if you’re the manager in this situation and your employee approaches you and you tell them to fuck off, well, bad move, buddy.

Daniel Steere: 19:45

Right. Right. Bad bad move by the manager.

Ryan Hodges: 19:48

But let’s remember, we said we’re going to be slightly snarky here. So if we dial it back in the manager, and the manager, you say, look, that’s not your problem. Don’t worry about it. This, that, and the other. You’re actually making the work suck for your people because you’re oppressing their ability to learn. Anytime you’ve got someone coming to you that’s asking for help or looking for guidance, and not bitching, bitching is a different problem. Bitching needs to be shut down, needs to be managed, not really professionally. But if you’ve got someone genuinely trying to learn, which I don’t know, I don’t think I’ve ever come into a… you know, very few managers that I’ve ever run into genuinely were were assholes. Most of them were ultimately good people and just overloaded and stressed. But as soon as somebody walked up with a genuine request, they they they went out of their way to figure it out. And then I think the same thing to your point with leaders. If you’re a leader listening, if you’ve got an employee and a manager that’s wanting to learn, don’t do the not your problem. Give them guidance or direction. Don’t shut them down because to your point, they may be bringing something that may be broken. Your frontline people are your biggest source of information. And if you’re shutting down your source of information, it’s the worst thing you can do.

Daniel Steere: 21:04

Yeah. Yeah. I think that, you know, as you as you look at employees, you know, there’s certainly a class of employees that just… they’re just going to complain about everything. Right? And so as a manager, those, like, those are hard people to manage, but but they are what they are, and you pretty quickly identify, like, this guy is just going to complain about everything, so I tune him out and I stop listening. And then there’s the people who just don’t say a whole lot, they just kind of do what they’re told, and they’re easier to manage. There is that rare employee who actually takes the initiative to ask, to learn, to understand. And if you’re either one of the other two, right, you’re the guy who complains about everything, or the person who just says fine and does it, I actually think the the path for an employee to make work not suck is actually that path of kind of leaning in a little bit no matter how crappy the job is and saying, how can we make this better? Can you explain this to me? Because oftentimes, especially with how quickly technology is evolving, a lot of these monotonous jobs could be improved, potentially even outsourced. And I’m not trying to get anybody fired here, but I’m just saying most companies that I know of right now don’t have enough good people. Everybody’s looking for good people all the time. Right? So if you are smart, hardworking, inquisitive, you want to make things better, and you find a way to take a crappy job and cut it in half or outsource it or you you find some way to improve or overcome that, man, that’s actually your best move to a promotion. Whether it’s at this company or someplace else, somebody’s going to pay you for that. And so bitching or ignoring are probably both the wrong answers for employees, and engaging, leaning in and saying, okay, what could we do together to maybe make this suck a little bit less is a great step towards not only making the job better, but also making your own life better.

Ryan Hodges: 23:20

Yeah. You know, there’s some… everything you said in there was great. I want to do the other side of it. Right? There’s a dichotomy, there’s a balance because if you’re inquisitive on everything in the role, then it looks like you’re challenging authority, you know. There’s also a point where there are some things that there are opportunities where there’s a reason it is what it is. You know, maybe there’s a big system change coming 6 months down the road, and it’s just got to be status quo until the time gets there, you know, it’s it’s that whole seeking to understand and then knowing the balance of when to push and when to yield because there are sometimes you may get, look, we just need you to do this. Why? Why? Why? Or, you know, what there’s there’s also a good thing in this, again, this is a delicate balance. If you’re unsure of things, ask your peers out of curiosity, not out of a tit to to mute me or or, you know, bitch. Right? So you get out of the water cooler, we all bitch about it, then, you know, we’re really not helping our case. But if we can go to our peers and say, you know, what’s going on, and then you can go to the manager and say, hey, we would like to figure it out. If a manager has strength in numbers, again, that actually helps in upward communication versus, you know, the other thing is it’s always great. You’re right. If you’re that proactive person that is trying to better understand and better everything around, make sure you’re not doing it as a siloed hero. You know, you’re not trying to get ahead of everybody else because guess what? It’ll come back and bite you.

Daniel Steere: 24:45

It will pull you down.

Ryan Hodges: 24:46

It will pull you down, and… you’re right. Being that proactive person, you’re you’re part of your job may get outsourced or get transferred or, you know, redundant or whatever. But if you’re the one that’s bringing the information and the solution to the table, well, guess who’s going to be in line for the next promotion, just like you said.

Daniel Steere: 25:06

Right.

Ryan Hodges: 25:07

Yeah. So yeah. It’ll be straight up…

Daniel Steere: 25:08

If the AI… yeah. If AI or the robots are going to take your job, make sure you’re the one leading that, not getting run over by it.

Ryan Hodges: 25:16

Right. You know, the the other thing I’ll mention is there are some monotonous jobs that just are what they are. Right? Like, it’s it’s not a situation where the… where, you know, this is a process that we started years ago, we’re still doing it, but we don’t know why. We kind of forgot our purpose. I think about something like truck driving. Right? Like, there’s a lot of people who drive trucks for a living, and some people enjoy the solitude. They enjoy the… but…

Daniel Steere: 25:44

That’s not a monotonous job to them.

Ryan Hodges: 25:46

Think about it.

Daniel Steere: 25:47

It’s not. To them it’s not.

Ryan Hodges: 25:49

Think about it. That’s that’s one thing to take away. A monotonous job is only monotonous to the person that doesn’t like doing it.

Daniel Steere: 25:54

Right. And so I wanted to talk about those people who don’t like doing it, but they’re stuck in it.

Ryan Hodges: 25:58

Yep.

Daniel Steere: 25:59

And what I would say to them is I think that monotony can be a huge opportunity for multitasking, for self-improvement. Right? There are so many podcasts and audiobooks and master classes and all of these things. If you can find a way to put in a pair of headphones, or turn on, you know, some sort of device, there are just so many resources out there, and that becomes actually, I think, an opportunity not only to keep the money coming in because you got to pay the bills, but then begin preparing yourself for the thing you’d really rather be doing. And in a monotonous job, again, if it’s monotonous to you, to your point, Ryan, if this is not something you enjoy, but you’re doing it because you have to, maybe your family needs you to make the money, then then find a way to use that time as best you can to move in the direction you do want to go.

Ryan Hodges: 27:00

Well, use it as as motivation and fuel, you know, use it as the the I don’t want to I don’t want to do this anymore. I don’t want to… you know, and and I think one thing I don’t think we’re saying is, like, plug in an audiobook in a, you know, manufacturing plant where you’re in an unsafe environment. Right? Like, it’s utilize the time appropriately and clearly. Make sure that, you know, hey, is it okay if I listen to this podcast while I’m on the line doing this thing? If that’s something that’s okay, and, you know, there’s a lot of places that let you listen to music and whatnot. So you’re right. Maximize the time. Instead of spending the time being frustrated in the job, use it as as availability to do something, like you’re saying, to to to better, to learn, to improve, and to apply.

Daniel Steere: 28:04

Yeah. And that’s not like TikTok videos or…

Ryan Hodges: 28:06

No. No. Sit there and be flipping on TikTok.

Daniel Steere: 28:10

Right. Or or listening to romance novels. Like like no. Like, listen to something that’s actually going to help you.

Ryan Hodges: 28:15

If if listening to romance novels helps make the job less monotonous, then go for it. I mean, I think it’s all about how do you how do you make work not suck? What what do you get enjoyment out of that you can parallel with the work? And and sometimes, it’s a matter of, you know, there may be a policy or procedure in place that doesn’t allow you to do it, but this, again, goes back to the manager. Like, hey, I’m I’m good with doing the work, but can I just… you know, can we turn some music on? I mean, how can you make work fun?

Daniel Steere: 28:54

Yeah.

Ryan Hodges: 28:54

And, I mean…

Daniel Steere: 28:56

Yeah.

Ryan Hodges: 28:56

There’s there’s been times and, again, I don’t… I can’t really say this because I don’t do this every single day, but there’s been times, like, sweeping in a warehouse has been made fun.

Daniel Steere: 29:04

Mhmm.

Ryan Hodges: 29:05

And it’s… you know, the music gets blaring in the warehouse, it’s, you know, after hours, so the the the hustle and bustle, and you’re not worrying about, you know, the forklifts running over, everybody grabs a broom, helps out, and then the place is swept and it’s fun and, you know, people are dancing and cheering and singing. I mean, I’ve seen it.

Daniel Steere: 29:19

That sounds like a musical you’re thinking of.

Ryan Hodges: 29:21

No. But that’s that’s kind of… I mean, if you were to call it one, it was a bad one, but… but I just…

Daniel Steere: 29:26

I don’t know of any workplace I’ve ever been to where people spontaneously break out into singing. But, you know, maybe you’ve worked at different kinds of companies.

Ryan Hodges: 29:32

I didn’t say they spontaneously broke out in singing. I said they made work fun.

Daniel Steere: 29:36

No. You said singing and dancing.

Ryan Hodges: 29:38

Well, they got to… there’s just a couple of guys screwing around with the broom, but, you know, it’s… you know, the… but it’s it’s it’s all about how can you make it fun or how can you… you know, if you’re, like, learning, listening to audiobooks, if you enjoy, you know, listening to music, if you enjoy, you know, just… it’s it’s all about how can you make the work fun. If you’re if you’re stuck doing it or if at the moment it is what it is, it’s how can you make it fun? If you’re competitive, gamify it. Not be in a not in a a win-lose kind of manner. You know, you can’t screw up your job, but it’s like, how can I gamify it in a way to make make this fun? And you find that it it it’s not it’s the the task itself is monotonous, but if you make fun around it, then you’ll find the time flying by. But if you spend all your time, you know, complaining about it or, you know, going the other direction where you you you have the negative thoughts, then it is only going to make it worse, and it is only going to be boring, and it is only going to feel like eternity.

Daniel Steere: 30:41

Yeah. Yeah. That’s… yeah. I I think maybe to to add on to that, making your work not suck is not your manager’s job. Making your work not suck is your job, and and you’re you’re basically responsible for making your work not suck. And so that involves…

Ryan Hodges: 31:02

I’m going to challenge that. I’m going to challenge that.

Daniel Steere: 31:04

Okay. Go for it.

Ryan Hodges: 31:05

So I do agree. You are part of the equation. You do have to do your own, but I do think it is also in the leader and the manager’s role to try to make the job as enjoyable as possible. You know, that doesn’t mean giving everybody doughnuts every morning, but…

Daniel Steere: 31:20

Right.

Ryan Hodges: 31:21

If if you find an opportunity to make it fun or to build culture, you should do that. That, I think, is another problem is we get so stuck on the production, the the IQ part of the equation, get so stuck on the production numbers, hit the numbers, the unit counts, blah blah blah, that we negate the culture aspect, the human element of it, and as well as you can have both. You just got to find the right solution, and there does there’s nothing that says you can’t make work fun. There’s a it’s not work has to suck to hit the production numbers. That’s not why we go to work.

Daniel Steere: 31:56

Right. Yeah. So… yeah. You’re right. I I I would agree. I think managers and executives have a responsibility to try to help in that process as much as they can. I want to caution against the passivity. Right? The the the employee who’s like, well, this job sucks, and so my manager needs to fix that. And and and that I would challenge and say, okay. Maybe they have a role to play, but so do you. And understanding how you’re wired and what kinds of things you enjoy doing, what kinds of things you do well, and then finding ways o either make your job more like that or finding another job that is more like that. Like, there’s there’s a big part of this that is also on the shoulders of each individual employee to partner with their manager and leader to try to figure out how to make their job not suck.

Ryan Hodges: 32:45

Well, you know I’m about to say one of my favorite analogies.

Daniel Steere: 32:48

Uh-oh. What did I do?

Ryan Hodges: 32:49

The the the, meet in the middle. Right?

Daniel Steere: 32:51

Okay.

Ryan Hodges: 32:52

You don’t meet in the middle by each going 50/50. If you take a point in time, you know, beginning and an end, let’s just say 100 feet, for example. Okay. Each one of you goes, you gotta meet in the middle. You have to put 100% effort to meet that person in that half distance.

Daniel Steere: 33:06

Okay.

Ryan Hodges: 33:07

If you only put in 50% of the effort to get to the middle, you’re only going to be 25% in. And if the other person puts 50% of the effort in, you’re going to have a 50% gap in the middle because there’s still a gap. You have to put 100% effort to meet in the middle, and that’s what I think you’re talking about is you can’t sit back and wait for the manager to come to you. You can’t sit back and wait for someone to figure it out for you or be told what to do. You have to put the effort in to do your part, but it is up to the the business, the managers, the leaders to meet their part as well. And that’s that’s typically what the manager’s role is. The manager’s role is to be in that middle person to move up and down the chain. Right? So it it it takes us all.

Daniel Steere: 34:09

Yeah. So in summary, if a train leaves Denver going 50 miles an hour and another train leaves Chicago going at 47 miles an hour, and it’s 1400 miles away, that is how you make work not suck.

Ryan Hodges: 34:28

Sure. Ride a train. Why not? You know what? You want to make work not suck? Ride one of those Japanese trains. Those are amazing.

Daniel Steere: 34:35

Yeah. That’s a good point. It kind of just goes to show that if we if we think about work in terms of how we can bring enjoyment to it, or at least minimize the suck factor, there’s probably a lot we can do on an individual basis, but also recognizing that the people around us, the managers, the leaders, they have a role to play too. It’s just about meeting in the middle with 100% effort.

Ryan Hodges: 34:59

Right. And it’s it’s understanding that not every job is going to be glamorous. Not every job is going to be fulfilling in every single moment. But if we can find ways to make it more enjoyable, whether through the work itself or the culture we create around it, then work doesn’t have to suck as much. And maybe, just maybe, we can even start to enjoy it.

Daniel Steere: 35:21

Yeah. And I think that’s the key takeaway. If you find yourself in a job that feels monotonous, that feels like it sucks, take a step back and ask yourself what you can do to change that. What can you do to make it better? And then, don’t be afraid to have those conversations with your manager, with your team, to try and improve things. Because, as we’ve been saying, it’s not just on them. It’s on you too.

Ryan Hodges: 35:47

Absolutely. And if you’re in a leadership role, think about the culture you’re fostering. Think about the environment you’re creating. Is it one that encourages people to engage, to take ownership, to find meaning in their work? Or is it one that just pushes for numbers, quotas, and bottom lines at the expense of everything else? There’s a balance to be found, and when you strike that balance, you start to see a difference in how people approach their work.

Daniel Steere: 36:14

Yeah, and that difference can be the key to making work not suck, not just for you, but for everyone around you. It’s a collective effort, and it starts with each of us taking responsibility for our part of the equation.

Ryan Hodges: 36:28

Exactly. So, take that responsibility, lean in, and make the changes you can. And if you’re in a position of leadership, recognize your role in that process. Together, we can all work towards making work not suck.

Daniel Steere: 36:43

Well said, Ryan. I think that’s a good place to wrap it up for today. Thanks for the great conversation, as always.

Ryan Hodges: 36:51

Always a pleasure, Daniel. And thanks to everyone listening. Remember, it’s up to all of us to make work not suck. So let’s do our part, and let’s do it with 100% effort.

Daniel Steere: 37:03

Amen to that. Until next time, take care, everyone.

Ryan Hodges: 37:08

Take care.

Announcer: 37:10

Make Work Not Suck. Our podcast that talks about exactly that, our process, vision, journey, culture, and results. We present real-world business solutions that make the difference. Our goal is to make work not suck. Hosted by Ryan Hodges, co-host Daniel Steere. Join us each episode and make work not suck.